Thoughts On The Challenge Rating System

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

Re CRs, as a GM who usually runs published scenarios and doesn't have time to go over all the stat blocks I'm of the opinion that, to coin a phrase, you go to the table with the CRs you have, not the CRs you would wish to have. It might be nice to convert to the U_K system but it requires several extra steps in XP calculation and for now I'm sticking with XP based off CR. WoTC CRs are far from perfect, but they appear to do 1 thing quite well, which is provide a monster that is a challenging encounter for a PC group of level equal to the CR.

I think the thing about the official Challenge Rating system is that its just about works well enough over the first 20 levels (or at least the first 15 or so) to not be much of a problem. Its really when you get to epic levels that you can notice major discrepancies, and as you know the CR/EL system I designed was initially created out of problems I saw in trying to use the official rules to balance epic/immortal gaming.

So although my rules are clearly superior, unless your PCs are either very high (15+), epic or immortal level its probably not a necessity.

Of course its still worthwhile taking a look at the pdf even if you don't plan on using the challenge rating system presented, because there are (IMO) some good ideas on balancing monster design, class/prestige class creation and so forth.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Ballard_Alvar!

. . . I remember the time my 14th (or was it 15th) level party battled the Balor. there were 5 of us +1 npc. We defeated it before the first round of combat ended. that was awesome. needless to say we leveled.+

3.0 or 3.5 Balor though?

 

[S'mon]

I think the thing about the official Challenge Rating system is that its just about works well enough over the first 20 levels (or at least the first 15 or so) to not be much of a problem. Its really when you get to epic levels that you can notice major discrepancies, and as you know the CR/EL system I designed was initially created out of problems I saw in trying to use the official rules to balance epic/immortal gaming.

So although my rules are clearly superior, unless your PCs are either very high (15+), epic or immortal level its probably not a necessity.

Yup - of course, if I GM to above low-epic and I'm using CR-based XP the U_K system becomes very attractive! My main campaign is only 3rd level though, hence WoTC CRs are pretty much functional. My high-level campaign is approaching 19th, but the XP there has been pretty much freeform recently, around 3000 XP/session. Last time I gave caculated XP I'd run a WoTC free mini scenario with a "CR 24" classed dragon (CR 14 old white w 10 Druid levels) - ie it was really CR 19, tops, and the PCs got 4 times the XP it was really worth.

 

[Saeviomagy]

And thus the Alhoon, on paper a CR19 monster, was defeated pretty much single-handedly by a Level 7 half-orc barbarian.

Well, basically this is a problem because an awful lot of monsters are 'paper tigers'. If you get in some solid hits, and get lucky on saves then the monster is a goner. Contrarily if you get a bit unlucky, the party is a goner. An illithid is basically that - if he goes first and successfully mind-blasts the party, then that's it - you're dead.

If he doesn't, the party will probably slice him up good.

 

[styker]

Since we are talking about CR, i'd like opinios about som monster that i am creating and his CR... can be here?

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Since we are talking about CR, i'd like opinios about som monster that i am creating and his CR... can be here?

I think the CR is too low, raise it by 2.

 

[styker]

What do you think about the CR of this monster???

Iscariot



Large Outsider (Taanari, Extraplanar, Chaotic Evil)

Hit Dice:

36d8+ 360 (648 hp)

Initiative:

+10

Speed:

50 ft. (10 squares), fly 150 ft. (good)

Armor Class:

52(–1 size, +6 Dex, +21 natural, +8 armor, +8 insight), touch 19, flat-footed 42.

Base Attack/Grapple:

+36/+43

Attack:

+5 vorpal adamantine greataxe +50/+45/+40/+35 melee (2d8+18/19–20/x3) or slam +44 melee (2d8+13).

Space/Reach:

10 ft./10 ft.

Special Attacks:

Spell-like abilities, summon demon, Spellfire.

Special Qualities:

Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, spell resistance 39, telepathy 100 ft., item master, true seeing.

Saves:

Fort +35 Ref +31 Will +33

Abilities:

Str 28, Dex 23, Con 30, Int 29, Wis 27, Cha 33

Skills:

Concentration +43, Spellcraft +41, Knowledge(four) +41, Spot +41, Listen +41, Search +42, Bluff +44, Intimidate +42, Jump +42 Gather Information +44 Diplomacy +44 Climb +42.

Feats:

Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Quicken Spell-Like Ability(dispel magic greater), Power Attack, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Quicken Spell-Like Ability(dimensional door), Overwhilming Critical, Desvanting Critical, Blindingspeed(x2).

Environment:

The abysm

Organization:

Solitary

Challenge Rating:

25

Treasure:

Triple of standard coins; double goods; triple items

Alignment:

Chaotic Evil


Combat

Fear(Ex): As a free action Iscariot can invoke a fear effect like the spell (Will DC 40).

Spellfire(Su): Because of the Alassar’s Stone Iscariot now has the power to use the spellfire like a spellfire wielder, every time he is target of a spell(except from area spell) he absords the energy in the form of spell points, he can spent this spell points to give +1 bonus to saving throws, attacks and skill tests, for every spell point spend in this way he gains a +1 bonus.

Vulnerable Point(Ex): If a opponet has a natural 20 and confirm the critical hit he hits the Alassar’s Stone doing that Iscariot take a damage equals Spell Points with him x 10.

Flaming Body(Su): Because of the Alassar’s Stone Iscariot is surrounded for a fire aura that deals 6d6 of fire damage every round to any meele opponent.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will— blasphemy (DC 28), dominate monster (DC 30), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 28), power word stun, telekinesis (DC 26), unholy aura (DC 29); detect good, detect law, magic missile, wall of energy, discern location, suggestion, unhallow, unholy aura, water breathing, Harm(DC 27), fireball(DC 24), dispel magic, dispel magic greater, dimensional door; 1/day—fire storm (DC 29), disintegrate(DC 27), shapechange, meteor swarm(DC 30). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

True Seeing (Sp): Always actived, she can be dispelled, but the archdemon can reactivate them as a free action.

Equipment: Iscariot always is encountered using his Head’s Killer (+5 Vorpal GreatAxe), Bracers of Armor +8, Cloak of Resistance +5. Scrolls of Maze, Heal x2.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey styker!

What do you think about the CR of this monster???

Iscariot



Large Outsider (Taanari, Extraplanar, Chaotic Evil)

Hit Dice:

36d8+ 360 (648 hp)

Initiative:

+10

Speed:

50 ft. (10 squares), fly 150 ft. (good)

Armor Class:

52(–1 size, +6 Dex, +21 natural, +8 armor, +8 insight), touch 19, flat-footed 42.

Base Attack/Grapple:

+36/+43

Attack:

+5 vorpal adamantine greataxe +50/+45/+40/+35 melee (2d8+18/19–20/x3) or slam +44 melee (2d8+13).

Space/Reach:

10 ft./10 ft.

Special Attacks:

Spell-like abilities, summon demon, Spellfire.

Special Qualities:

Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, spell resistance 39, telepathy 100 ft., item master, true seeing.

Saves:

Fort +35 Ref +31 Will +33

Abilities:

Str 28, Dex 23, Con 30, Int 29, Wis 27, Cha 33

Skills:

Concentration +43, Spellcraft +41, Knowledge(four) +41, Spot +41, Listen +41, Search +42, Bluff +44, Intimidate +42, Jump +42 Gather Information +44 Diplomacy +44 Climb +42.

Feats:

Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Quicken Spell-Like Ability(dispel magic greater), Power Attack, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Quicken Spell-Like Ability(dimensional door), Overwhilming Critical, Desvanting Critical, Blindingspeed(x2).

Environment:

The abysm

Organization:

Solitary

Challenge Rating:

25

Treasure:

Triple of standard coins; double goods; triple items

Alignment:

Chaotic Evil


Combat

Fear(Ex): As a free action Iscariot can invoke a fear effect like the spell (Will DC 40).

Spellfire(Su): Because of the Alassar’s Stone Iscariot now has the power to use the spellfire like a spellfire wielder, every time he is target of a spell(except from area spell) he absords the energy in the form of spell points, he can spent this spell points to give +1 bonus to saving throws, attacks and skill tests, for every spell point spend in this way he gains a +1 bonus.

Vulnerable Point(Ex): If a opponet has a natural 20 and confirm the critical hit he hits the Alassar’s Stone doing that Iscariot take a damage equals Spell Points with him x 10.

Flaming Body(Su): Because of the Alassar’s Stone Iscariot is surrounded for a fire aura that deals 6d6 of fire damage every round to any meele opponent.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will— blasphemy (DC 28), dominate monster (DC 30), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 28), power word stun, telekinesis (DC 26), unholy aura (DC 29); detect good, detect law, magic missile, wall of energy, discern location, suggestion, unhallow, unholy aura, water breathing, Harm(DC 27), fireball(DC 24), dispel magic, dispel magic greater, dimensional door; 1/day—fire storm (DC 29), disintegrate(DC 27), shapechange, meteor swarm(DC 30). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

True Seeing (Sp): Always actived, she can be dispelled, but the archdemon can reactivate them as a free action.

Equipment: Iscariot always is encountered using his Head’s Killer (+5 Vorpal GreatAxe), Bracers of Armor +8, Cloak of Resistance +5. Scrolls of Maze, Heal x2.

Its (approximately*) ECL 53 and CR 35 (by WotC standards)

*I went over the stats pretty quickly, also I wasn't totally sure what was going on with regards Spellfire and Vulnerable Point so on the fly I just ad hoc'ed that they would cancel each other out. Other that that possible mistake (?) it should be fairly accurate.

It should be noted that listed amongst its spells you have Unholy Aura twice, Greater Dispel Magic twice and Dispel Magic. I removed one of each when determining the CR.

 

[S'mon]

Its (approximately*) ECL 53 and CR 35 (by WotC standards)

I independently came up with a WoTC CR of precisely CR 35 also, yup.

Rem a WoTC CR is "challenging encounter for a typical PC group of this level". 25 looks significantly too low to me.

 

[styker]

35???? i made his sheet using the the grazzt stats, so he is more weak than demogorgon (CR 28 - 30...). How can be 35?