D&D 5E Thoughts on the Resilient Feat

[Slit518]

If you follow the base math, then it becomes literally impossible for someone to succeed at their weakest save, even if they roll a 20.

Excellent! Design working as intended!

Edit below:
Not to detract from my original comment, but I just thought about it.
Basic math would mean basic rules, no feats, no magic items as influence.

A magic caster with a 20 in a stat and a 6 proficiency would have a DC of 19.
8 + 6 + 5 = 19

A character with an 8 or 9 in a stat would have a -1.
A roll of 20 with the -1 modifier makes it 19, target met, save passed, though only at 5% chance.

However, the base rules wouldn't account for rolled stats which end up lower than 8.
So I could see why a stat of 7 or below could be a problem.
But, there are several ways to combat this.
One way would be to enhance your weak stat, why leave it so weak for so long, unless it is a specific roleplay purpose.
Another way, hope you have a Bard or Cleric or some other buffer in the party that allow you to influence rolls.

 

[cmad1977]

If you follow the base math, then it becomes literally impossible for someone to succeed at their weakest save, even if they roll a 20.

Nope.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

A magic caster with a 20 in a stat and a 6 proficiency would have a DC of 19.
[...]
A character with an 8 or 9 in a stat would have a -1.

In that case, they would have a 5% chance of success, yes. But PCs are also intended to fight monsters, such as the level 17 Adult Red Dragon that has a DC 21 fire breath.

This presents a contradiction in the rules, because they very clearly state the procedure for making a saving throw, but they also say that you should never roll unless the outcome is uncertain.

However, the base rules wouldn't account for rolled stats which end up lower than 8.

Believe it or not, the basic default rule in the PHB (as well as the Basic design document) is to roll 4d6 and drop low. Using an array is presented as an alternative, if you want to save time or otherwise don't want to roll.

One way would be to enhance your weak stat, why leave it so weak for so long, unless it is a specific roleplay purpose.

Increasing a stat from 5 to 7, or even 8 to 10, is unlikely to give significant benefit compared to raising your Con from 18 to 20. After all, it doesn't matter whether your Dex modifier is -3 or +0, when you need to roll a 21.

 

[Slit518]

In that case, they would have a 5% chance of success, yes. But PCs are also intended to fight monsters, such as the level 17 Adult Red Dragon that has a DC 21 fire breath.

This presents a contradiction in the rules, because they very clearly state the procedure for making a saving throw, but they also say that you should never roll unless the outcome is uncertain.
Believe it or not, the basic default rule in the PHB (as well as the Basic design document) is to roll 4d6 and drop low. Using an array is presented as an alternative, if you want to save time or otherwise don't want to roll.
Increasing a stat from 5 to 7, or even 8 to 10, is unlikely to give significant benefit compared to raising your Con from 18 to 20. After all, it doesn't matter whether your Dex modifier is -3 or +0, when you need to roll a 21.

Get that Bard handy! Sounds like you could use that d12.

 

[Harzel]

Get that Bard handy! Sounds like you could use that d12.

Toss in Bless and you've got at least +2.

 

[Horwath]

Just give everyone proficiency in all saves. Don't make people pay a feat tax in order to fix the bad math in the base game.

I would rather group saves back in 3 saves option:

Fortitude: str+con saves, key ability con
Reflex: dex saves, key ability dex
Will: int+wis+cha saves, key ability wis

The every class would have 1 save proficiency, resilient would give second plus ability increase and some classes get another at higher levels.

 

[Satyrn]

In that case, they would have a 5% chance of success, yes. But PCs are also intended to fight monsters, such as the level 17 Adult Red Dragon that has a DC 21 fire breath.

So, an adventurer who started with a terrible Dexterity never bothered to shore up his weaknesses as he gained experience, and now he's facing a red dragon?

Well then, even though he has no mathematical chance of making that Dexterity save, I'd still say it's his choices that led to him being immolated.

I like this. My choice to ignore my own weaknesses matter.

 

[Grognerd]

So, an adventurer who started with a terrible Dexterity never bothered to shore up his weaknesses as he gained experience, and now he's facing a red dragon?

Well then, even though he has no mathematical chance of making that Dexterity save, I'd still say it's his choices that led to him being immolated.

I like this. My choice to ignore my own weaknesses matter.

Agreed. Which is why I think Resilient should be allowed to be taken multiple times, so long as it's a different ability each time.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I would rather group saves back in 3 saves option:

Fortitude: str+con saves, key ability con
Reflex: dex saves, key ability dex
Will: int+wis+cha saves, key ability wis

The every class would have 1 save proficiency, resilient would give second plus ability increase and some classes get another at higher levels.

Actually, if you go with that breakdown, you can almost fix the math by calculating save bonuses as follows:

Fort = Str bonus + Con bonus
Reflex = Dex bonus + Wis bonus
Will = Int bonus + Cha bonus

It relies on the fact that PCs have above-average stats on-average, but it significantly reduces the likelihood of someone falling entirely out of the range of a d20 roll just because they had one bad stat.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So, an adventurer who started with a terrible Dexterity never bothered to shore up his weaknesses as he gained experience, and now he's facing a red dragon?

Well then, even though he has no mathematical chance of making that Dexterity save, I'd still say it's his choices that led to him being immolated.

I like this. My choice to ignore my own weaknesses matter.

If you start with an 8, and sacrifice six boosts to raise your Dexterity all the way to a 20, you still need to roll a 16 on the die in order to pass that save. Your choice in this matter is statistically meaningless. That dragon isn't going to breathe on you four times before the combat is over.

A +1 on the die roll only matters if it's a check that you're going to make twenty times. In the absence of magical items, "shoring up your weakness" is a myth.