D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

Status
Not open for further replies.

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
The MtG staff has far more people and resources then D&D department.

And therein lies the rub. The fact that the D&D is small... does that mean they can be excused for not having PoC representation in their writing, or is that no excuse? It's really no different than asking if a Caucasian author should be allowed to write a book with black protagonist. Some people would say that the author doesn't have the knowledge of the black experience to be truthful in their work so that they shouldn't do so... but others would ask that if we want representation of all culture in media, doesn't an author have to do so anyway?

It's a Catch-22. If you only write about that which you are... then we end up with nothing but silo'd projects with no cross-over in diversity whatsoever (unless every project gets created by committee.) At the end of the day... any creative person is going to have to try and work "across the aisle" as it were, trying their level best to be sensitive *and* representational. And we have to just hope that people understand that and acknowledge the attempt at inclusiveness, even if they can find criticism of the parts of the result.

And we also have to REALLY hope that the creative person doesn't become defensive at the criticism. Because oftentimes what then results is the over-reaction and the person gets so defensive that they lash out and become exactly what they were trying not to be. The #NotAllMen type of reaction (for example) where someone gets offended when a woman makes a criticism of men in general, and he takes such offense he ends up reacting misogynistically off of it. With reactions like "F- that B-!" or whatever. Thereby in many ways proving the point.

So what we can hope for from Chris, Mike, Jeremy and the rest of the D&D team is to hear the criticism, acknowledge the points made, and take it to heart so that if/when there's another time when this situation comes up they have another perspective in their heads to listen to. And then perhaps they might end up making different choices. As opposed to getting offended at the criticism with a response along the lines of "We were trying to include a new and diverse culture that hadn't been spotlighted in the game before! We didn't have to, but we wanted to! What more do you want from us?!?" Because that kind of response just completely misses the point.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Xaelvaen

Stuck in the 90s
I'm curious... Do you mean "we" as in mostly white males who get plenty of diverse representation in D&D? And yeah in the actual books skin color is often tied to setting... we're not discussing your homebrew we're discussing an actual product.

First, you have a valid point, but not where you might think. The actual product may have come off as representing (or misrepresenting specific cultures). We've just been doing this so long, we use the books as more guidelines than anything. Secondly, my group is only 40% white males. Further, it is 40% Native American, and 60% Female. I didn't mean -any- offense in my comment, only that we just don't pay attention to color. I don't see a person and say 'Hey, that's a cool Japanese dude.' I just say 'Hey, that's a cool dude.' I know sometimes this is seen as racist in its own right, for not 'caring that racism does exist' but I find the only way to truly not be racists, is just to not see skin color anymore.

Two mistakes here... First... if I buy and adventure path/mini-campaign it should be judged on what it contains, not what I can ignore and change. Second, this isn't a book that describes Faerun... there's no current book for Faerun in 5e so while you could claim there's no deficiency in Faerun, that doesn't speak to the deficiencies or merits of Chult as it is portrayed in

I can agree with facets here, but not entirely. I've long-since determined nothing I buy in the RPG industry will be perfect for my cast of players out of the box, so to speak. That does skew my perspective of the product, as mentioned above. I would also admit I'm a bit biased in this regard, because I make up a ton of content for my group.

My female Native American player specifically wanted a culture to better reflect her heritage - Hopituh Shi-nu-mu (Hopi). She doesn't always play this, in fact she rarely does, but I make sure to have it in my Homebrew pages, updated to whatever system we play. Not surprisingly, some other people have played it as well, with her support - she even helped educate them on personality traits and facets of the civilization.

Long aside short, I wouldn't be able to accurately say if ToA is supposed to represent an amalgam of African cultures - to me it just makes sense that in a very hot environment, skin hues begin to darken. It went over well in my group, with above player wanting to play a Chultan.
 
Last edited:

akr71

Hero
How long have you been running D&D? And again we are talking about the product... not what you can change the product into... right?

I'm not sure how its relevant, except to give you an in to tell me how much more experience you have, but... I began running the game in the early 80's, left the game in the early 90's & found the game again with 5e.

Game and product are two very different things to me. The game is the series of mechanics and rules we use to play - the product is something we purchase (ToA in the case of the posted article) which I believe I've already said inherently comes with its own baked in preconceptions (rightly or wrongly). Its great that WotC has attempted to be more inclusive, but articles like this show that they still have a way to go in other areas.

I've also said that the author has every right to point out his or her misgivings on how Chult is portrayed in ToA and in past products. If the author feels that a portrayal is culturally insensitive, inappropriate or lazy, I am certainly not going to argue otherwise. My first post in this thread was because my initial thought upon reading the article was "wait, certainly Chult is not the only place on Faerun where there are humans that resemble Earth's people of African descent, is it?" I was attempting to offer another location on Faerun where, using one's own imagination and the imagination of your players, that a more palatable culture might be found.
 

Imaro

Legend
I'm not sure how its relevant, except to give you an in to tell me how much more experience you have, but... I began running the game in the early 80's, left the game in the early 90's & found the game again with 5e.

No it was more to point out that maybe it's skewed to look at this from the perspective of someone whose been running D&D off and on since the 80's... D&D is seeing an upshift in popular culture which means it's more likely to be explored by PoC for the first time... their impressions aren't going to be shaped by what they can do with it by homebrewing... but by what it is.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
I don't think that they necessarily needed a black writer, but bringing in some knowledgeable consultants to see what they would like to see would have been wise, and made a better product.
 

akr71

Hero
No it was more to point out that maybe it's skewed to look at this from the perspective of someone whose been running D&D off and on since the 80's... D&D is seeing an upshift in popular culture which means it's more likely to be explored by PoC for the first time... their impressions aren't going to be shaped by what they can do with it by homebrewing... but by what it is.

Fair enough. Light bulb moment... For what its worth, I've gone back and read the article top to bottom a second time - personally, I'm glad the OP linked to it. Its well written and thought provoking and my during my second read through I've picked up exactly that.

“WotC has effectively told me, as a POC, that I’m no longer welcome to play in a game world I’ve known and loved for years as a POC player character.” Barber now plays in a diverse D&D group with a homebrew setting. There, his dungeon master has architected an infrastructure for black cultures to exist.

It isn't so much that we all can create our own world and invent or drape whatever pieces of culture over it that we wish. It is that the product on the shelf brings its own baggage and forces a viewpoint on players that they do not identify with, detrimentally so.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
Some thoughts (recognizing that I am myself a white dude):

1) Yes, it would be great to hear from the prospective of POC on this issue. Which is exactly what this article does. The article, aside from the historical context parts, is primarily a collection of takes from black gamers. They asked several. Which is kind of the point, seeing as whatever number of black gamers this article consulted about ToA was also the exact number of black gamers the article's author consulted beyond that which WotC consulted in making ToA.

2) There's been a lot of hand-wringing in this thread about how white (and/or male, and/or straight, and/or etc.) creatives "can't win" and you know what? There's a certain degree of truth to that. But to simply stop there is to only scratch the surface and ignore why that might be. When you dig deeper you realize the problem isn't sensitivity; it's privilege. The white straight male story has been done to death, and continues to be done to death. Our culture is increasingly demanding, appreciating and celebrating diverse stories. This is not to say that white people can't or shouldn't continue to tell their stories, but they should expect a certain degree of pushback or at least eye-rolling, but that's really the worst they can really expect, considering how privileged white narratives still are from a financial/mass market appeal perspective.

2a) Side-note, but if you think that we have no way of knowing what African fantasy is supposed to look like, it is not because such stories do not actually exist. It's because you haven't been reading them.

3) Of course, the better alternative for white creatives is to incorporate diverse perspectives within their own stories. This does, of course, appear to be a fraught and perilous endeavor. But it doesn't have to be. You just have to put in the work. Research. Consult. Workshop. Open yourself up to the criticism before you ship the final product. Or you could skip all of that and just go with your instincts. Guess which path WotC took? (hint: remember how many people of color consulted on ToA?)

4) And here is why people with privilege need to do that work if they choose to present diverse perspectives: the greatest hallmark of privilege is to see one's privileged position as the "default". Remember that ridiculous Jack Nicholson line from As Good As It Gets? About how he writes women by starting with a man and taking away reason and accountability? That's a pretty on the nose representation of this phenomenon.

4a) I almost wrote "mentality" instead of "phenomenon" but I wanted to make one thing clear: in the vast majority of these cases (i.e; those in the real world, as opposed to Nicholson's character) this is entirely unconscious and unintentional. It's the way we're socialized. Everything that we've been presented, up to and including many of the ways we present and talk about issues of "diversity" reinforce the notion of "white straight and male (and able-bodied and etc.)" as defaults. I'm a white straight male who has spent the last decade or so trying to un-learn this and it's still difficult. Nobody said this was going to easy. At the same time, don't expect any credit just for trying. When it comes to actual impact of what you do, your intentions are ultimately irrelevant.

4b) Anyway, back to research. This mostly entails actually seeking out and finding diverse perspectives. And, and this seems to be the more difficult part for a lot of people, taking them at face value. You have to listen and you have to believe. You want to know how to "win"? This might not encompass the entirety of the work you have to do. But it's absolutely where you have to start.

4c) What this allows you to do is to imagine others complexly, to borrow a turn of phrase from John Green. This goes beyond mere "empathy" and into the realm of "understanding".

4d) When you don't bother with doing any of these things, the only things you have to fall back on when trying to present diverse perspectives are commonly recognized stereotypes and tropes. Note that, in the vast majority of these stereotypes and tropes were invented by white creatives for largely white audiences. These are therefore definitionally not "diverse perspectives"; they are still quite solidly white perspectives on diverse cultures. This is what ToA, with it's distinct lack of diverse voices anywhere within the development process, ultimately is.

5) Good intentions do count for a few things, I suppose, even if they fall woefully short of adequate. That the hearts of the designers were probably in the right place is evident by the fact that, in updating a 20+ year-old setting rife with horrifically racist depictions (some from as recently as 9 years ago, it seems), they managed to create something that isn't all that overtly offensive (mad monkey disease notwithstanding). But that's a depressingly low bar, and one which they still managed to clip a little in the vaulting. Why they didn't bother to consult with POC gamers or creators, we probably will never truly know. But whether it was because they didn't want to put in the effort or because the thought never crossed their mind it was something they ought to do in the first place, it represents a clear display of laziness.

6) And here we reach the point where we have to talk about the expectations game. See, all those earlier depictions of Chult (or, as has been pointed out, all of the other incredibly lazy and/or incredibly racist non-white real-world culture fantasy mash-ups that typify the broader Forgotten Realms setting) didn't suddenly become more racist overnight. They were always racist. But nobody really batted an eye, not even at that line about noble savages and cannibals, released several months after Barack Obama became the first black major party presidential candidate. I mean, I'm sure there were voices of anger and frustration within the community at these depictions, I don't want to diminish that at all, but they weren't exactly widespread and they weren't spawning think pieces in internet nerd culture journalism. But in the majority of the community, they either didn't even notice or didn't think it was a big deal.

5a) The 5e Player's Handbook changed everything though. D&D was suddenly a very inclusive game, and it wanted to let you know that. The title image for "Humans" is black woman. Artwork of diverse characters proliferate the entire document. There were inclusive statements on sexuality and gender, and it's easy to forget how radical its statement calling out its specifically trans inclusivity was; that it's still not a broadly popular stance within mainstream liberal community, let alone the wider population as a whole, nearly three and a half years later. This was a D&D that was trying to do so much better for its diverse array of fans.

5b) This brings us to the paradox of "knowing better"; when you appear to know better, to "get it", the expectations for you are higher and when you mess up, the criticism comes that much stronger. Thus, why this version of Chult is significantly better than any that have preceded it, but that it's still not good enough, and why WotC seems to be receiving more criticism than they had in the past, when nobody expected any better. You might think that this is not fair, and you'd be absolutely correct. But imagine, for a moment, the amount of privilege required for the following scenario: the biggest release from the biggest company in an forty-plus year-old industry prominently features black characters and a black culture and not a single person of color was involved in its creation. And nobody involved thought this was enough of a problem to do something about it. "Fair" has never been part of the equation.

6) Ultimately, the issue is the fact that you had this great team with many years of experience among them and all of them were white. And it's endemic of gaming; I mean, it's endemic of basically every American (or hell, Western) media, but gaming is no exception and if anything it is less diverse than other forms of media. By the way, this is why there are women-only gaming writing competitions people seem to love to talk crap about (I'm not away of any POC-exclusive competitions within the field, but there really ought to be). It's about developing and promoting diverse voices so this kind of lazy essentializing stops happening in products released in 2017 and beyond. I mean, even just consulting with prominent fans of colors on your pan-African-inspired setting is a pretty damn low bar, and it's still one WotC failed to clear. And yeah, we do expect better of WotC at this point.

7) But, and here's the main takeaway, I would certainly hope that WotC expects better of itself at this point also. Because if they don't, then yeah... maybe our expectations for them were too high after all.
 

I just saw POCGamer did the first of a multipart review of Tomb of Annihilation a few days ago:

https://pocgamer.com/2017/10/13/tomb-of-annihilation-review-part-1-chult-in-5e/

It's good food for thought.

1) Yes, it would be great to hear from the prospective of POC on this issue. Which is exactly what this article does. The article, aside from the historical context parts, is primarily a collection of takes from black gamers. They asked several. Which is kind of the point, seeing as whatever number of black gamers this article consulted about ToA was also the exact number of black gamers the article's author consulted beyond that which WotC consulted in making ToA.
 

The idea that any Westerner, regardless of their color, should have cultural stewardship of Africa is actually pretty demeaning to people who actually live on the continent.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top