JoeGKushner
Adventurer
Against it. Well, not against providing more ideas and context for players to get more material for their own characters for, just tired of the carrot of extra game mechanics being associated with it.
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Three Pillars of Character Creation
- Thread starter Mercurius
- Start date
Pickles JG
First Post
I don't like them as generic additions. I like them to add setting flavour the way they do in Darksun. Hmm Faction themes in Planescape ...
Vael
Legend
What was also pointed out in the seminar is that Themes can take a lot of the heavy lifting that feats have been doing. Themes can allow half-races like the Dhampyr or Elan (or Half-Dragon?), they could have subbed in for Dragonmark feats, and a lot of other things that it seems that feats have been stretched to do.
And while I welcome our themed overlords, I'm not entirely pleased with Dark Sun's implementation. If it were to make a bigger splash into the core game, I'd want some refinement done. I'd want some more variety than simply getting a somewhat lackluster encounter attack power.
And while I welcome our themed overlords, I'm not entirely pleased with Dark Sun's implementation. If it were to make a bigger splash into the core game, I'd want some refinement done. I'd want some more variety than simply getting a somewhat lackluster encounter attack power.
I welcome the introduction of themes. To me they provide an important link that was missing before.
Although I think it's way too complicated, that was the one thing I like about character creation in "Das Schwarze Auge" (The Dark Eye):
You pick a race, a society, and a class to determine your basic characteristics.
The themes are very similar to that society aspect (maybe even broader) and fill in the blanks between race and class. Ideally they describe your role, place and function in society.
It's also comparable to Runequest's 'backgrounds'. In a way you could say Runequest lacks classes, it only has race and theme.
Although I think it's way too complicated, that was the one thing I like about character creation in "Das Schwarze Auge" (The Dark Eye):
You pick a race, a society, and a class to determine your basic characteristics.
The themes are very similar to that society aspect (maybe even broader) and fill in the blanks between race and class. Ideally they describe your role, place and function in society.
It's also comparable to Runequest's 'backgrounds'. In a way you could say Runequest lacks classes, it only has race and theme.
FireLance
Legend
While I like the idea of themes, this is one issue about them that bugs me: they aren't as concrete a concept as race and class. Hence, as more varied aspects are covered under themes, there seems to be less and less reason (apart from purely mechanical balance) why a character should only be restricted to one. For example, if there are half-race themes, background themes and society or faction themes, you can't have a dhampyr templar or an elan member of the Veiled Alliance.
On the other hand, stretching feats to do this bugs me less, possibly because a character will eventually have more than one feat.
Ideally, (at least for me) the set of themes open to characters should somehow be mutually exclusive: for example, the idea of using themes for dragonmarks in an Eberron campaign, or themes for factions in a Planescape campaign is something I can get behind. Similarly, I would be fine if a generic campaign had themes for being born under different star signs, or themes for being a devoted worshipper of different gods in the campaign, but not both at the same time.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I like themes. A lot.
Here's the thing, though.
A class is a major defining characteristic of your PC. 99% of everything you do comes from your class.
The Theme is a strong defining characteristic of your PC. If you want, 33% of everything you do can be from your theme (this will cut into your class, but shouldn't make you any less effective).
The Race is a very weak defining characteristic of your PC. It gives you some crappy feat selections, maybe a PP, a single power, and ability score bonuses that are basically there for min/maxers to tell you your decision to play a Dwarf Bard was WRONG.
The Race needs to be stronger.
It's also true that your Theme and your Race could use the same mechanics. There's nothing about the mechanics that makes, say, a Dwarf Theme unrealistic.
But it would be weird to use the same mechanic for both.
So we need a way that Race can influence future power selections. That it can become as "character defining" as a class or a theme, but with different mechanics.
Here's the thing, though.
A class is a major defining characteristic of your PC. 99% of everything you do comes from your class.
The Theme is a strong defining characteristic of your PC. If you want, 33% of everything you do can be from your theme (this will cut into your class, but shouldn't make you any less effective).
The Race is a very weak defining characteristic of your PC. It gives you some crappy feat selections, maybe a PP, a single power, and ability score bonuses that are basically there for min/maxers to tell you your decision to play a Dwarf Bard was WRONG.
The Race needs to be stronger.
It's also true that your Theme and your Race could use the same mechanics. There's nothing about the mechanics that makes, say, a Dwarf Theme unrealistic.
But it would be weird to use the same mechanic for both.
So we need a way that Race can influence future power selections. That it can become as "character defining" as a class or a theme, but with different mechanics.
I'd prefer if Themes were entirely social encounter based, and class was entirely combat based. The theme you choose helps to determine the skills you may have access to, or the utility powers you have. That way I could play a skillful fighter, a thieving mage, a athletic cleric and so on, without breaking the rules, or requiring additional feats (which often cut into a characters combat effectiveness). The 4E got close with "siloing" combat and non-combat skills, this would take it one step further, and cement the separation.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
The Race is a very weak defining characteristic of your PC. It gives you some crappy feat selections, maybe a PP, a single power, and ability score bonuses that are basically there for min/maxers to tell you your decision to play a Dwarf Bard was WRONG.
The Race needs to be stronger.
It's also true that your Theme and your Race could use the same mechanics. There's nothing about the mechanics that makes, say, a Dwarf Theme unrealistic.
But it would be weird to use the same mechanic for both.
So we need a way that Race can influence future power selections. That it can become as "character defining" as a class or a theme, but with different mechanics.
I hoped that 4e would make Race a larger part of a character's essence. But as it ended up, Class is 90% of the whole. So if they are going to add a third pillar, please make it a meaningful one and also shore up Race at the same time.
Either that or go the Essentials route and make the stuff that was Race-specifc into flavor that is available to any Race.
RLBURNSIDE
First Post
power themes
would be a really good / easier way than the kludgy multiclassing power swap rules to obtain the powers you want for the type of gameplay you wish to have. Let's say I wish to focus on powers that knock opponents down. They're smattered around different classes, albeit some with different primary stat usage. The powers grouped by theme would need some modifications in stat usage to be workable for certain builds.
Of course this results in power creep though. Imagine taking a "multi-attack" focused build, do I get access to hurricane of blades? That would rock, but free up two feats. I don't see how that's balanced to those who have already spent those feats toward this end. If they make all the themes powers brand new powers that stand on their own and cannot be taken outside the "theme", or carefully select which powers are in what themes, it might be possible to allow clever combinations of powers from several classes and avoid too-powerful obvious combos. E.g. as a half-elf paladin/avenger/whatever with Twin Strike dilletante, could I take this theme of multi-attack powers and circumvent all those nasty power-swap feat requirements and limitations?
I'm curious to see how it works, and whether you can legally add a "theme" to a character if you're not starting at level 1. How can you retrain so many powers? Do they just get added to your list of options, and you retrain into them / select them as before?
would be a really good / easier way than the kludgy multiclassing power swap rules to obtain the powers you want for the type of gameplay you wish to have. Let's say I wish to focus on powers that knock opponents down. They're smattered around different classes, albeit some with different primary stat usage. The powers grouped by theme would need some modifications in stat usage to be workable for certain builds.
Of course this results in power creep though. Imagine taking a "multi-attack" focused build, do I get access to hurricane of blades? That would rock, but free up two feats. I don't see how that's balanced to those who have already spent those feats toward this end. If they make all the themes powers brand new powers that stand on their own and cannot be taken outside the "theme", or carefully select which powers are in what themes, it might be possible to allow clever combinations of powers from several classes and avoid too-powerful obvious combos. E.g. as a half-elf paladin/avenger/whatever with Twin Strike dilletante, could I take this theme of multi-attack powers and circumvent all those nasty power-swap feat requirements and limitations?
I'm curious to see how it works, and whether you can legally add a "theme" to a character if you're not starting at level 1. How can you retrain so many powers? Do they just get added to your list of options, and you retrain into them / select them as before?
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