AD&D 1E Three Things that can't be Fixed in 1e AD&D

I guess I/we have always just assumed - perhaps incorrectly - that by-the-book spell studying happens all at once at the start of the day and that's it. But I suppose it doesn't have to.
In 1E it took an amount of time to memorize spells. 1st level starting at 15 minutes per spell and then on up IIRC. So, replenishing spells was also a time sink if too many are used. If you fought a magic user but they escaped you'd try and find them before they could get back all their spells. For an archmage to regain all their spells, it would take days. Also IIRC, you could rest for four hours and get back a 1st level spells. If a magic user had plenty of spell slots and plenty of spells, they could leave one open and memorize it later in the day when it was needed. Good for utility spell use.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

In 1E it took an amount of time to memorize spells. 1st level starting at 15 minutes per spell and then on up IIRC. So, replenishing spells was also a time sink if too many are used. If you fought a magic user but they escaped you'd try and find them before they could get back all their spells. For an archmage to regain all their spells, it would take days. Also IIRC, you could rest for four hours and get back a 1st level spells. If a magic user had plenty of spell slots and plenty of spells, they could leave one open and memorize it later in the day when it was needed. Good for utility spell use.

All true. Assuming you were memorizing spells for like 12 hours a day, the Archmage could get back his spells in like 4 days.

Of course, the problem with this from a DM perspective is that you are beating your own nose against a brick wall in order to try to keep the power level of a PC down. It's not a fun solution as a DM, because you don't necessarily want play to stop and to skip every other day or two days in a living world. You want the story to go on at a good pace. You're saddling the PC with problems that are bigger problems for the PC than the NPC, and I do want to point out that this was done on purpose.

Or in short, M-U was designed as an NPC class. So much of 1e AD&D is, "NPCs and PCs play by different rules", and PC spellcasters in particular were basically told, "You'll never really have the resources or ability to be cool like an NPC" while PC's fighters were definitely steered toward, "You can be cool like an NPC." Because in Gygax's mind, wizards were not protagonists but quest givers and plot devices, because that's how they mostly showed up in the fiction he was familiar with.

But I do want to point out how incoherent it is at one level to say that it is a low magic world, and also for those to be the procedures for crafting and recharging wands. But that's again with the idea that it's OK for magic to be pervasive as long as it is siloed off to the realm of powerful NPCs, who can be 16th level clerics or 18th level M-Us and do those cool things, and you can glibly throw out ideas like "to recharge a wand of conjuration, among other things you just have to bathe it in the blood of every different type of creature it can summon" as if you could arrange that outside the resources of being the DM.
 

All true. Assuming you were memorizing spells for like 12 hours a day, the Archmage could get back his spells in like 4 days.
Question: the way you read/run it, does the Archmage (or any mage) have to rememorize everything from scratch each time or just refill what was cast the day before?

We have it that they just have to refill what they cast; thus if a mage only cast a couple of 1st-level spells yesterday this morning's study session is only about half an hour.
Of course, the problem with this from a DM perspective is that you are beating your own nose against a brick wall in order to try to keep the power level of a PC down. It's not a fun solution as a DM, because you don't necessarily want play to stop and to skip every other day or two days in a living world. You want the story to go on at a good pace. You're saddling the PC with problems that are bigger problems for the PC than the NPC, and I do want to point out that this was done on purpose.
It does force a sometimes-tough choice: to keep going with less than a full load-out or to stop and rest and risk things getting worse in the meantime. I like that part.
Or in short, M-U was designed as an NPC class. So much of 1e AD&D is, "NPCs and PCs play by different rules",
I've tried my best to fix that, such that NPCs and PCs do play by the same rules.
and PC spellcasters in particular were basically told, "You'll never really have the resources or ability to be cool like an NPC" while PC's fighters were definitely steered toward, "You can be cool like an NPC."
I've not really encountered this. PC wizards could, if they wanted, fairly easily become the "cool" wizards they meet as NPCs, but it would probably require retiring from adventuring then taking quite some in-game time to themselves up as stay-at-home boss types.

What the game doesn't have - and IMO it's a huge oversight - is mechanics that allow people in the setting to (slowly) gain levels without adventuring: the stay-at-homes who become the high-level NPCs that dot these settings.
 

hmm. Did people actually use the random % chance to know a spell rules? From what I remember back in the 1E gaming days, we pretty much let starting mages pick the spells they wanted (they already had a difficult start). I don't think we used the % chance of adding a new spell either.... if they found a scroll, they could copy it in, no problem. I don't remember how we did 'adding new spells when you gained a level', although I think it was just 'add one of whatever you want'....
Yes, absolutely. From the explanations in the DMG, for example, it was clearly the intent, meant to ensure different M-Us knew different stuff as opposed to just "the best", and to incentivize finding new ones. Fuindordm is right that this was part and parcel of Vancian magic- the struggle and sub-game of finding new spells. M-Us and their sub-classes functionally have their own whole category of treasure to find and be excited by.

Oe was an exception. 1st level charm person RAW was permanent until dispelled and they were effectively your slave and so could fight for you as a new meat shield.

Very vancian of few spells but they could be whoppers, even from first level.

Charm Person: This spell applies to all two-legged, generally mammalian figures near to or less than man-size, excluding all monsters in the “Undead” class but including Sprites, Pixies, Nixies, Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins and Gnolls. If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the “charm” is dispelled (Dispel Magic). Range: 12”.

A little bit of wiggle room for a DM to quibble about what coming under the influence of means.
Well, and bear in mind that TSR started to limit that power almost immediately. Dropping the unlimited duration and giving it varying duration based on the Intelligence of the victim was the first revision it got, in 1975 Supplement I: Greyhawk.

3e and 3.5 worked the same, both had holding the charge as a general rule for touch spells and both gave shocking grasp an instantaneous duration.
Good catch on the general rule in 3.5 for holding touch spells! You're incorrect on that last part (I quoted the durations of each, "until discharged" from 3.0 and "instantaneous" from 3.5, both verbatim), but they do work the same despite that wording change, because of the general rule.

B/X did not have shocking grasp. :)

Web at even 10' range means you can cast it past your front row tankers as a wall if you want.

1e was always explicit that you could cast in melee.

Cause wounds and other cleric reversed touch spells in B/X was the sticking point. In the basic book they said rules would be provided in expert, then expert changed the phrasing for when you could cast spells.
I would contend that Expert clarified the intent and made it more explicit. :)

that seems like it could really hamper starting mages who don't have really high INT. At the least, I'd think they should be able to choose one spell for their book. Otherwise, random bad luck (something that can really plague 1E RAW) could give them nothing all that useful to survive....
The procedure in 1E is really arcane and not clearly explained. See PH p10.

If I read/recall correctly basically each time you get access to a new spell level (including 1st level), you go through that entire spell level in any order you choose, and check whether you can potentially learn each given spell (except Read Magic, which all M-Us automatically start out knowing, and your other three randomly-generated spells in your beginning spell book). Once you hit your Max Spells Known based on your Int score, you stop. If you fail too many rolls and don't meet your Minimum Spells Known then you can re-try failed ones until you hit your minimum, again in whatever order you choose.

However there's also some implication that you don't actually check for a given spell until you encounter its formula (on a scroll or in a spell book) in play, so the exact timing is a little ambiguous and the DM needs to figure out how they want to run it.
 

Question: the way you read/run it, does the Archmage (or any mage) have to rememorize everything from scratch each time or just refill what was cast the day before?

We have it that they just have to refill what they cast; thus if a mage only cast a couple of 1st-level spells yesterday this morning's study session is only about half an hour.
Per AD&D you only have to re-prepare what you've expended. Though of course if you want to replace something you still had memorized but not expended that also takes the same amount of time (dependent on the spell level).

I've not really encountered this. PC wizards could, if they wanted, fairly easily become the "cool" wizards they meet as NPCs, but it would probably require retiring from adventuring then taking quite some in-game time to themselves up as stay-at-home boss types.
Well, as Celebrim alluded to, in addition to taking major downtime, it also requires them to get access to formulas/ingredients for making and re-charging magic items which were implied or outright said to be absurdly difficult and time-consuming to get, at least within the boundaries of the rules available to PCs.
 

Question: the way you read/run it, does the Archmage (or any mage) have to rememorize everything from scratch each time or just refill what was cast the day before?

They just have to refill what they cast, but since each 4th level or higher spell requires more than an hour, casting only a couple of your higher level spell slots means a whole day of study.

The problem is that it is anti-social mechanics. It's not necessarily fun for the group, nor is it necessarily fun for the DM, as it sort of forces you to create stories that don't have a lot of time pressure. And taking time pressure out of a story kills the fun. And it's yet another sort of, "Really, you shouldn't be playing a M-U (or even a caster)" sort of decision, because eventually this "tough choice" is just about not participating. You are asking for a participation death spiral on casters or else you are playing haven/delve formats where Gygax's by the book idea about how if a week passes IRL then a week also passes IRL in game.

But why even bring it up, since you generally play below 10th level anyway and play so far from RAW that I have no idea what to say about your game. The mechanic is exponentially punishing. It's not punishing at low levels and doesn't really impact play much. Play above 10th level a lot, by RAW, and then tell me how you like it (either as a GM or player).

What the game doesn't have - and IMO it's a huge oversight - is mechanics that allow people in the setting to (slowly) gain levels without adventuring: the stay-at-homes who become the high-level NPCs that dot these settings.

It's pretty easy to add such rules - especially to 1e AD&D where I had back in the day worked on the problem - and in my opinion not including them is not an oversight. Indeed, Gygax explicitly says in the DMG that not including them wasn't an oversight but a deliberate choice, and for the most part it's one I agree with.

The problem is that a game that involves levelling up while being a stay at the home time practicing your profession isn't really a roleplaying game. You play it out in spread sheets not in character, and it involves doing nothing for decades as the world moves on without you. It's not social. It's may be a game but it is a stretch to call it "play". As much of a simulationist as I am, I really can't endorse that as a style of play.
 

Good catch on the general rule in 3.5 for holding touch spells! You're incorrect on that last part (I quoted the durations of each, "until discharged" from 3.0 and "instantaneous" from 3.5, both verbatim), but they do work the same despite that wording change, because of the general rule.
Turns out when I looked up the 3.0 shocking grasp duration I was mistakenly looking in a 3.5 source. :)

In the 3.0 SRD it says permanent until discharged.

Shocking Grasp
Transmutation [Electricity]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature or object touched
Duration: Permanent until discharged
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
The character's successful melee touch attack deals 1d8 points of electrical damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +20). When delivering the jolt, the character gains a +3 attack bonus if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or made out of metal, carrying a lot of metal, etc.).
 

Well, as Celebrim alluded to, in addition to taking major downtime, it also requires them to get access to formulas/ingredients for making and re-charging magic items which were implied or outright said to be absurdly difficult and time-consuming to get, at least within the boundaries of the rules available to PCs.
Or we just assume the existence of an Artificer class or profession, as a non-adventuring or post-adventuring sub-class of MU. (I actually wrote this stay-at-home class up for my game)
 

It's pretty easy to add such rules - especially to 1e AD&D where I had back in the day worked on the problem - and in my opinion not including them is not an oversight. Indeed, Gygax explicitly says in the DMG that not including them wasn't an oversight but a deliberate choice, and for the most part it's one I agree with.

The problem is that a game that involves levelling up while being a stay at the home time practicing your profession isn't really a roleplaying game. You play it out in spread sheets not in character, and it involves doing nothing for decades as the world moves on without you. It's not social. It's may be a game but it is a stretch to call it "play". As much of a simulationist as I am, I really can't endorse that as a style of play.
For the most part I agree, though I think there are ways it can be done in the right game.

As I recall Ars Magica is specifically organized for campaign play to pass in Seasons, during some of which the Magi of the Covenant (and any accompanying Companions and Grogs) may go on adventures and find magics and harvest Vis, and during some of which the Magi stay at home and do research and make magic items and longevity potions and so forth. And there are mechanics for how much experience/skill advancement they can get while home studying, and how much magical stuff they can produce per unit of time, etc.

But dovetailing with your thesis about doing it in D&D being anti-social and forcing the Wizard players into reduced or non-participation, I think part of the reason it works in Ars Magica is that the players are ALL expected to have a Magus character as their primary, and/or to go into it with their eyes open if they choose to have a Companion and NOT have a Magus character, so all the players have the same motivation and opportunity for using that downtime and doing magical research and production.
 

Turns out when I looked up the 3.0 shocking grasp duration I was mistakenly looking in a 3.5 source. :)

In the 3.0 SRD it says permanent until discharged.
Yup. And in my physical copy of TSR11550 which I pulled off the shelf on Friday to check before making my post about "holding the charge" in various editions, it says "Duration: Until discharged" (p251). :)
 

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Remove ads

Top