Throat Slit?

[Bastoche]

Consider this: A rogue with a ring of invisbility manages to move right up behind a victim undetected. He then carefully (and invisibly) reaches around and cuts his victim's throat. The victim is not defending himself in any way, since he is unaware of the rogue's presence. Is this situation a coup de grace?

If not, what is the defining difference that makes the barber scenario a coup de grace, while this is not?

quote from the SRD:

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.

(underline from me). The underline part allows for DM judgment calls. It opens the door to situation not covered by the rules. IMO, this situation is suggested by the underline part. But like I said, it's not a rule neither house-rule issue. It's a DM's call.

In your example, if the character is not in a fighting situation, I would consider allowing a CDG.

 

[Bastoche]

Based on the Denizen's of Freeport book the would be assasin is a Ept 5/ Asn 3 and has the special abilities of death attack (DC 14) and +2d6 sneak attack and is armed with a +2 Straight razor (1d4+3 damage, equivalent to a Kukri). The blade is likely to be poisoned (but let's disregaurd that for a second).
So:

PC sits down in chair.
Barber starts the shave.
(Now a Sense Motive Check? And if so what reaction?)
Barber then attempts to slit PCs throat.
PC makes FORT save against death attack or dies instantly, asuming the killeffect was intended.
If the throw succeeds the attack is a normal sneak attack.
But, in this case is it neccesary to make an attack roll? Is it an automatic hit? I would say yes, but is it an automatic crit or CDG?
Hit damage would be between 7 and 19 points.
Crit damage would be between 16 and 26 points, since Sneak Attack damage isn't multiplied.
None of which is likely to kill the intended vicitim, a 6th level Ranger.

(All the more reason for the assassin to use poision.)

Am I getting all this right? The question remains the nature of the damage done to the victim.

If you use the death attack, ignore the CDG. It's one or the other in such situation and a death attack is presumed to be an improved CDG. It's the same thing IMO. In fact it's exactly the same mechanics. The death attack ability is just a way to allow a CDG in situation where it wouldn't normaly be permitted. That's my intepretation. Make it what you will...

Automatic hit or not is up to you IMO. I would make it a +4 to hit without dex and possibly without armor bonus. Magical bonus would remain. After all, you want the assassin to fail...

 

[UltimaGabe]

Consider this: A rogue with a ring of invisbility manages to move right up behind a victim undetected. He then carefully (and invisibly) reaches around and cuts his victim's throat. The victim is not defending himself in any way, since he is unaware of the rogue's presence. Is this situation a coup de grace?

If not, what is the defining difference that makes the barber scenario a coup de grace, while this is not?

There's quite a big difference. When a person goes to the barber, they don't just happen to be sitting down when a Barber comes out of nowhere and starts to scrape them with a blade- they're voluntarily putting themselves in a potentially deadly situation. That is, a person walking down the street has a certain expected level of awareness- after all, you've gotta be on your guard in case a car jumps the curb and comes straight at you or something. You aren't going to be completely relaxed except in certain circumstances, and you'll be ready to react to an unexpected situation because, well, nothing is necessarily perfectly safe.

When you go to the barber's, however, you know very well that a person is going to be putting very sharp objects extremely close to vital areas of your body. And you let them. You sit down in that barber's chair, and you voluntarily let them come at you with sharp pointy things. Unless you're the kind of person who jumps every time the Barber starts to cut your hair, you're going to be sitting there, relaxed, and relatively helpless. Much more helpless than, say, a person walking down the street. The person in the Barber's chair is expecting the barber to bring a blade close to his neck- and thus isn't going to react when he sees the barber do so.

In your example, the rogue is still probably going to be able to kill the aforementioned street-walking commoner- they're very Flat-footed, and the Rogue would gets lots o' sneak attack. It isn't the same situation, though.

Anyway, as for making a Sense Motive check, I'd let them do it, but at a HUGE penalty. I know I for one am not "on my guard" or "checking for evil barbers" when I go to get my hair cut. People trust barbers- or else they wouldn't go to them and let them place a sharp blade against their jugular. Take J. K. Simmons' line in Spiderman: The Movie: "I trust my barber."

 

[Felix]

Bauglir:

Invisible Rogue: the target is unaware, and therefore has his standard "on guard" attitude that he goes around with. He is flat-footed, but not helpless.

Evil Barber: The target is aware that the barber has a blade at his throat and is perfectly ok with it. He is staying motionless and is totally unconcerned. He has consciously made himself helpless to aid the barber in his job.

The difference is in the character of the target: in one the target doesn't know but is ready to react accordingly when he feels something is amiss, and in the other the target knows and decides to do absolutely nothing about the possible threat.

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.

I'd say that laying back in a chair, closing your eyes, and having hot foam on your face while someone scrapes a wicked sharp blade accross your neck qualifies as putting yourself at the barber's mercy.

Mmmm... hot foam...

I'd say it's a CDG. Auto-crit, which with a dagger won't be all that much... 2d4+4 maybe? And a fort save, say around DC 19. That gives melee types a pretty fair shake at surviving, and casters a harder time.

But everyone knows that spellcasters all grow beards and wear pointy hats so they don't really have to worry about evil Italian barber assassins.

 

[Stormborn]

However, i really must say, while this scene should be a lethal one, that does not make it a good one to add for the campaign. The star of an action film does not get dead in mid movie by a barber. If such a scene is added, he spots the look in the barber's eye out of the opposite mirror and reacts at the last second or maybe someone walsk in just before the barber pulls his throat slit.

So, while i would NOT want the system to mechanically prevent this from being lethal by putting the wall of hit points in the way, i would also not want to include this scene to its full conclusion in most any game.

A mitigating factor is that we are playing a swashbuckling game in which the PCs have "lives" rolled randomly when we began play. If the PC in question "dies" he will get better somehow. He also probablly wont go starting fights in strange bars with people he doesn't know whose families subsequently hire assassins.

 

[Sejs]

(All the more reason for the assassin to use poision.)

Oooooh...

OOOohhh..!

Not a poisoned blade, oh no no no.

Poisoned shaving creame. Injected type poison mixed in with the foam.


"Whoops! Looks like I nicked you a bit there. Sorry about that."

 

[MerakSpielman]

Poisoned shaving creame. Injected type poison mixed in with the foam.

...with a delayed onset...

 

[Particle_Man]

I'm meaner to your barber. I'd say a pc is always alert no matter what, unless he is asleep etc. So I would first check to see if the barber gets surprise (I would go barber bluff vs. pc sense motive). If not, they start rolling for initiative. If so, the barber gets a surprise round, in which the barber may attack the pc (at -4 th for using an improvise weapon) and the pc loses his dex. bonus and dodge bonus(es) to AC (unless the PC is a rogue or barbarian with uncanny dodge). If the barber misses, too bad. If the barber hits, then the barber does the damage of that weapon (1d4?) plus sneak attack damage if the barber was a rogue, plus chance for death attack if the barber was an assassin. Note: The pc might have had to remove his armour to get a shave, so could lose armor bonus to AC.

In short, barbers can't easily kill high-level pcs (great for killing 1st level commoners, though). But then, since high level pcs can jump off the top of a 20 story building, hit the ground, get up, dust themselves off, and walk away, this should not be surprising.

Turn it around: Do you want PC's to pose as barbers and kill NPCs too easily?

 

[DarkMaster]

quote from the SRD:

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.

(underline from me). The underline part allows for DM judgment calls. It opens the door to situation not covered by the rules. IMO, this situation is suggested by the underline part. But like I said, it's not a rule neither house-rule issue. It's a DM's call.

In your example, if the character is not in a fighting situation, I would consider allowing a CDG.

In my book this is definatly a CDG. I really like the CDG mechanic it was a great addition to D&D. It allow the simple guard pointing you with his crossbow at point blank, while you are trying to pick lock a door, to be a bit more respected. No more: Bah it can only do 10 dmg and I have 60

 

[Dingleberry]

I don't know about 3.5E, but wasn't there a discussion in the 3.0E DMG about situations like this: "a dagger in the eye is a dagger in the eye," etc.?