D&D 4E Throwing ideas, seeing what sticks (and what stinks)

[AbdulAlhazred]

Everything you guys are saying is true. Still, I like to ask.

As to the humanoid ranking thing - I was talking more about the perception that I've often seen vehicled (how is this not the word I want? I was so certain it was...) about this with regards to 4e (whilst I've never really seen it for other editions). I agree that 4e offers the easiest spread of villains w/o resorting to things like PC levels and such.

But there is this effect in the published adventures (as in other editions IIRC) where you fight your humanoids in order and they often don't make any sort of comeback. I don't really know why it drew the derision it did this time around - or perhaps I was overly exposed to that particular criticism... ?

I dunno, I can only say that my experiences with 1e, in particular, were that each humanoid type was encountered one after the other. First you fought some kobolds, then some goblins, then some orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, and finally ogres, then you start into the more idiosyncratic types, trolls, hill giants, etc. I guess a DM could carry that forward G-module-style through the hill, stone, frost, fire, and finally cloud and storm giants, and end with titans if he wanted to. I guess you could add in Verbeeg and Fomorians, probably a few others too if you want to dig into MM2 and other more obscure sources.

Anyway, most 1e games eschewed at least some of these steps, mostly because the increments between kobold and hobgoblin are all pretty small (kobold is 1/2 hit die, goblin is 1D-1, orc is 1D, and Hobgoblin is 1D+1). Kobolds and goblins are 'special' in that fighters get to do 1 attack/level on them, making them very much cannon-fodder for anyone above about 3rd level. Differences between orcs and hobs are pretty trivial though IIRC, though an extra hit point can make hobs a bit tougher and 1+1 does get a 1 better attack table column. Gnolls are the toughest M size humanoid, which oddly means their 2D+2 is actually BETTER in most respects than the 3D+3 of the bugbear (but bugbears do get stealth, and a lot of spells are bounded by hit dice). Gnolls also use the same attack table column as bugbears.

You'll also see an AC progression in 1e humanoids, Kobolds are like AC7, goblins AC6, orcs AC6, hobs are AC5. Everything beyond that kinda stalls around AC5 though, until you get to the AC4 troll. Note that to-hit progression is also basically +1 per monster with a few wrinkles. Its also notable that after the ogre the gaps get larger in hit dice, trolls are 6+6, but proportionately the increases are similar.

Overall its a pretty highly structured panoply. I'd further note that none of these types up to trolls has any real special ability, except bugbears stealth. Ogres have huge strength, but it doesn't really give them much. So its a VERY structured and set progression! Humanoid 'bosses' don't even break it really, as they too have no real special abilities. DMG adds in an option for shamans/witch doctors, but that isn't present in MM1, at least explicitly.

So, I can't support any contention that 1e isn't the champion of the 'humanoid ladder'. 4e, IME, barely has such a thing by comparison. I mean, sure, you could hit each type of humanoid starting at level 1 and work up, their base figure types are level 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 8, 9 (for the 1e types listed above). A few other types are interjected though, and the 4e types follow the level based AC and to-hit progression. Given there are multiples of each type that overlap in levels its hard to even see easily how to NOT mix the types in actual encounters (you can get away with using all the types of some humanoids together at a few levels, but some are scattered over an 8 level range!). Given the way 4e encourages and leans on modding and expanding different monsters its even hard to say for sure that one race is 'lower level' than another, since there are definitely kobolds in various books ranging all the way up to at least 8th level (where ogres start).

4e also moved the less canonical humanoids around a good bit. Trogs are pretty low level (2 hit dice) in 1e, but they're 7th+ level monsters in 4e, almost on a par with trolls and ogres.

 

[Tony Vargas]

As to the humanoid ranking thing -
there is this effect in the published adventures (as in other editions IIRC) where you fight your humanoids in order and they often don't make any sort of comeback.

Maybe in published adventures. But, it's easy to keep bringing back low-level critters. First shift them Solo > Elite > Standard >> Minion, then when you leave the minions behind, gather them into swarms.

I don't really know why it drew the derision it did this time around ... ?

That was pretty typical of the edition war, nerdraging against things in 4e that had been as or more pronounced in prior eds yet drew little ire.

 

[Igwilly]

Well, there’s a character I made in my old 4e campaign, and which I will create in the new one too: an ultra-mighty, 10 feet tall Kobold which goes by the name Klubba. He would be about a 35th to 40th level Solo back then. That should tell you something about level ranges

 

[MoutonRustique]

DIE NOW! (but probably not right now... but maybe?)

Rule idea: Successive [death saving throws] are replaced by pool-attrition [death saving throws].

New rule: when ["dying"] (I really hate that terminology - creates so many problems by closing so many doors... hate it), you roll 3 die. These die form your [I'm very much in dire peril - pool] All die that roll below 10 are removed. If your pool is empty at the start of your turn, you die*.

Note: All bonuses apply to all die rolled. (this is to keep things simple)

*see above for feelings regarding the word "die" - please read: "you suffer the grave and bad thing required by the narrative"

Why: I'm not a big fan of the "yeah, it can wait for a round" - I prefer more uncertainty and the threat of "instant" death. But at a reasonably low chance for the first moments, of course.

This way, you can take a chance that your buddy will manage a few rounds, but...

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

(snip) Gnolls are the toughest M size humanoid, which oddly means their 2D+2 is actually BETTER in most respects than the 3D+3 of the bugbear (but bugbears do get stealth, and a lot of spells are bounded by hit dice). Gnolls also use the same attack table column as bugbears. (snip)

Gnolls were actually size L - beware of two-handed swords! - and had 2 hit dice. Flinds, however, were size M and had 2+3 hit dice. I loved using gnolls because their L size meant my sword-armed PCs could really unload the damage on them. (And in a game when there was little beyond rolling to hit and then rolling damage, I was always looking to offer cheap visceral thrills in combat.)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

DIE NOW! (but probably not right now... but maybe?)

Rule idea: Successive [death saving throws] are replaced by pool-attrition [death saving throws].

New rule: when ["dying"] (I really hate that terminology - creates so many problems by closing so many doors... hate it), you roll 3 die. These die form your [I'm very much in dire peril - pool] All die that roll below 10 are removed. If your pool is empty at the start of your turn, you die*.

Note: All bonuses apply to all die rolled. (this is to keep things simple)

*see above for feelings regarding the word "die" - please read: "you suffer the grave and bad thing required by the narrative"

Why: I'm not a big fan of the "yeah, it can wait for a round" - I prefer more uncertainty and the threat of "instant" death. But at a reasonably low chance for the first moments, of course.

This way, you can take a chance that your buddy will manage a few rounds, but...

Interesting. I suppose you could look at it like the 4e style of death saves does mean that the character is immune to spontaneous death for 2 rounds. However, they can still EASILY be killed, say by a CDG or just stray AoE damage. It is NOT safe to be lying on the ground doing nothing. I doubt you're going to change the degree of motivation to get your allies healed ASAP by much with this rule. You may successfully gank a character or two though, question is if this suites your purposes or not.

 

[Tony Vargas]

New rule: when ["dying"] (I really hate that terminology - creates so many problems by closing so many doors... hate it)

Dropped' or 'Down' work.

*see above for feelings regarding the word "die" - please read: "you suffer the grave and bad thing required by the narrative"

Sounds like you're jones'n for FATE 'consequences.'

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Dropped' or 'Down' work.

Sounds like you're jones'n for FATE 'consequences.'

In HoML there are 'Limitations' and one subcategory are 'Afflictions', which includes things like some kind of crippling injury obtained in a fight, etc. These wounds don't currently have a hard and fast mechanic associated with them, they're more of a GM tool, or possibly a PC could take such a consequence to achieve inspiration or something like that. I'm still a bit up in the air on the final form of those mechanics.

 

[MoutonRustique]

THREE DIE FOR ONE! (hehehe - I like the misunderstanding potential here)

New rule: replace your d20 roll, with a 3d20 roll.
Test as usual for success.
One die succeeds: minimal success!
Two die : usual success!
Three die : complete success!

With regards to skills: would change the written approach a fair bit - but with a few examples given (or played through at table), I imagine this kind of tiered success formula would actually help!

With regards to attacks: 1d = 1/2 dmg, no riders
2d = as now
3d = critical hit

Now, since, I gather, criticals would happen a fair bit more often, it would be better to reduce the "add-ons" possible for criticals.

Addendum rule: it would, probably, also prove wise to remove most (if not all) multiattack powers - which isn't much of a problem for me as I don't like them in the first place!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

THREE DIE FOR ONE! (hehehe - I like the misunderstanding potential here)

New rule: replace your d20 roll, with a 3d20 roll.
Test as usual for success.
One die succeeds: minimal success!
Two die : usual success!
Three die : complete success!

With regards to skills: would change the written approach a fair bit - but with a few examples given (or played through at table), I imagine this kind of tiered success formula would actually help!

With regards to attacks: 1d = 1/2 dmg, no riders
2d = as now
3d = critical hit

Now, since, I gather, criticals would happen a fair bit more often, it would be better to reduce the "add-ons" possible for criticals.

Addendum rule: it would, probably, also prove wise to remove most (if not all) multiattack powers - which isn't much of a problem for me as I don't like them in the first place!

Meh, looked into the math. Easier to just do this,

check = DV - 5 or more critical failure
check < DV > DV -5 failure
check >= DV < DV + 5 success
check >= DV + 5 critical success

Now, maybe 4 degrees of success is overkill. OTOH you don't have to specify a different result for every one of them every time either (IE some powers may specify some critical failure thing, some may not). For the most part the GM can simply apply some narratively derived plot twist, benefit, etc. when nothing else is specified.

In any case, this produces math similar to your multi-die technique, but easier to roll. It also works better with advantage/disadvantage ala 5e, which I rely on heavily (replacing ALL situational modifiers).