Tieflings of Melnibone

[JoeGKushner]

That is evil. Pure self-interest with no regard for right or wrong is about as evil as you can get outside of supernatural creatures of pure evil.

In the 'real' world perhaps but in the standards of D&D? Not even close.

We call that alignment neutral.

 

[jasin]

(Apologies again for the rampant fanboism. I really can't help myself!)

I didn't mind. It's interesting, and really somewhat necessary for Moorcock, since he gets so convoluted sometimes that even a somewhat informed person can still have a pretty distorted image.

 

[jasin]

In the 'real' world perhaps but in the standards of D&D? Not even close.

We call that alignment neutral.

Pure self-interest, unrestrained by any sort of concern for anyone else, to the point where you keep slaves, surgically tune them to a specific note, and then make music by goading them to squeal in pain?

That's not neutral.

 

[jensun]

As i recall by the time the Elric series begins Melnibone had pretty much sunk into serlf absorbed introspection. Once it ruled the Young Kingdoms and destroy whole regions with Dragon Fire.

By the time of Elric Melnibone rules pretty much just its own Island, the rest of the world has broken away and formed into their own kingdoms. The Melniboneans keep slaves and are casually cruel, debauched and amoral but they arent out there destroying the race of man with fire and sorcery.

 

[Mark Hope]

The question of whether Melnibonéan morals are evil by human standards is dependent precisely upon that: human standards. In the real world (such as is inhabited by the reader,) their behaviour is pretty damn evil. In the world of the Elric novels, we are presented with the fact that the Melnibonéans are not human. Should they be judged by human standards? The humans of the Young Kingdoms would say so (and they manifestly do judge the Melnibonéans as evil, frequently calling them "demons".) The Melnibonéans, on the other hand, would argue that they are not evil. Humans, in their eyes, are a lesser species. Is it evil for a human to yoke cattle, breed dogs, or prune a bird's plumage? That is how the Melnibonéans see humans - as little better than livestock. Within the context of the stories, those are questions for the reader to consider and enjoy. Out here in the real world, the answers are cut and dried. Or at least, they should be...

I'd be interested to see if the tieflings get any treatment like this in 4e. How do they see themselves in comparison to other races? It would make for some intriguing party dynamics to have one member of the party seeing the others as memberse of a less valid species...

 

[The Ubbergeek]

The problem is - are values culturaly relative, or common to everyone? It's a problem we have in our world, with muslims and asian leaders complaining that human rights and human values are occidental values in fact.

For me, I leans to the 'they are universal' - the Melniborean may not be humans, but that don't change it, they are nasty and evil.

 

[jasin]

The question of whether Melnibonéan morals are evil by human standards is dependent precisely upon that: human standards.

The question of whether Melnibonean morals are Evil by D&D standards is dependent precisely upon that: D&D standards.

And by those standards, they're Evil.

In the real world (such as is inhabited by the reader,) their behaviour is pretty damn evil. In the world of the Elric novels, we are presented with the fact that the Melnibonéans are not human.

Neither are orcs, drow, yuan-ti, mind flayers, beholders, devils, demons...

They're still Evil.

You don't have to think of yourself as Evil to be Evil. Thinking other people are cattle to be tortured and used for your enjoyment is qualification enough.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

The question of whether Melnibonean morals are Evil by D&D standards is dependent precisely upon that: D&D standards.

And by those standards, they're Evil.


Neither are orcs, drow, yuan-ti, mind flayers, beholders, devils, demons...

They're still Evil.

You don't have to think of yourself as Evil to be Evil. Thinking other people are cattle to be tortured and used for your enjoyment is qualification enough.

Indeed. If you think of you above the others, that the others are naught but rabbles, weaklings, cattles, etc... deserving hurt and suffering or at least you don't mind going to such extreme to pursue YOUR goals, it's evil.

 

[Stoat]

Query:

I want to read some Elric stuff. What's the best place to start?

 

[Terramotus]

Query:

I want to read some Elric stuff. What's the best place to start?

Read the original series. It starts with Elric of Melnibone. In lots of the printings, it's 6 books long, but it's been occasionally bound up together.

The order is, 1) Elric of Melnibone, 2) Sailor on the Seas of Fate, 3)The Weird of the White Wolf, 4)The Sleeping Sorceress, 5) The Vanishing Tower, 6) Stormbringer. If nothing else, read the first one.