Time for an all-pixie campaign

[Doombybbr]

Y'know, I look at this statement, and I come to a completely different final sentence.

Giants are like every other monster. Goliaths are like every other race. Balance has taken the cool away!

On the other hand, I think having goliaths be so similar has encouraged me to find ways to make them very distinct in my campaigns, which has lead to them being used a lot more often. It's all fluff, but goliaths IMC tend to emphasize their benevolent primitivity and their embrace of the harsh elements of their homes. They're less about the big weapons and hard-hitting fighters (which was boring to me in their 3e premiere, since "big warrior guy" is already a well-worn place for a bunch of races), more about the toughness and isolation of living in the snowy mountains, a bond with the primal world, and a sort of druidic tradition that doesn't mandate frolicking in the woods with the faeries, but more staying out naked in the blizzard, starving yourself, taking psychoactive mushrooms, to become one with the natural world.

But mechanically, yeah, there's not much difference between Goliaths, Minotaurs, Dwarves, Half-Orcs, Warforged.....

don't goliaths get an additional weapon size (so more damage from their weapon) due to them being large.

 

[Dice4Hire]

don't goliaths get an additional weapon size (so more damage from their weapon) due to them being large.

not in 4E

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The thing is, I thoroughly get the "why bother with bland races" thing. OTOH to give a goliath +4 STR!!!!!!!! or full up always on +1 reach really would be making them the uttermost gods to melee to the extent that no other race could even hope to compete with. You all may recall the MM1 bugbear, which got to use oversized weapons and was immediately way out of line. The conclusion being if they're going to be PCs at all then they're going to have modest benefits like all other demi-human races. It would also be a real shame to pigeonhole them as nothing but melee weapon users.

There's too much balance, and then there's downright broke. Sometimes there's very little (or no) room between the two, especially when it comes down to attributes that clearly just put you in a whole different category in combat. Goliaths do have some very nice feat support, and a nice PP that gives reach. Not ideal, but I'm not real sure what else they can do.

 

[Doombybbr]

not in 4E

well i just posted my weapon sizes house rules in the 4e house rules section so if Goliaths ARE large they get the extra weapon sizes (and it deals with some of the weird rules regarding weapon sizes for small characters)

 

[JPL]

A 1st-level goliath can still have a 20 Strength and can be frighteningly effective with 2-handed weapons. Works for me.

As an alternative, I'd let a player use the DMG2 companion rules to play . . . just about anything, I guess. But I wouldn't kid myself into thinking I could really balance, say, a gold dragon wrymling, or even an ogre, with a bunch of standard PCs. Too many variables, and you end up with strange results like Savage Species.

Did a great Savage Species 3.5 one-shot, by the way, with a fey theme --- a satyr, a big blue feytouched ogre, a unicorn, and a pixie. Mechanically, a complete mess, starting when I realized that there was no way to get that unicorn up a ladder . . .

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A 1st-level goliath can still have a 20 Strength and can be frighteningly effective with 2-handed weapons.

Which is- as noted- no different from Dragonborn, Warforged, Minotaurs and Half-Orcs.

 

[JPL]

Which is- as noted- no different from Dragonborn, Warforged, Minotaurs and Half-Orcs.

Various racial benefits and feats give each of these races an edge in some aspect of melee combat without making one race stand out as The Best. If you start giving a goliath +4 Strength, Large weapons, reach, etc. . . . that's not just different, it's better, and 3rd Edition ECL ended up being an awkward way to balance things out.

I like game design that gives several good choices for Melee Guy, all different, but none superior to one another. I really like options that make non-optimal combinations --- gnome fighters, half-orc wizards, etc --- at least interesting (because interesting trumps optimized every time).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Various racial benefits and feats give each of these races an edge in some aspect of melee combat without making one race stand out as The Best. If you start giving a goliath +4 Strength, Large weapons, reach, etc. . . . that's not just different, it's better, and 3rd Edition ECL ended up being an awkward way to balance things out.

You misunderstand: I'm not saying give Goliaths +4 Strength AND Large weapons AND Reach, etc., I'm saying give Goliaths Reach, give Minotaurs +4Str, give Dragonborn, Warforged and Half-Orcs, something else to reflect their physical power.* Each race is thus a powerhouse in some way, but not the same way.

Because by shunting the kind of stuff that helps differentiates the strong races into the feat system of a feat-centric/feat starved system just forces players into making decisions between options that make the PC conform to racial archetypes and those improving his class abilities. It may lead to balance, but in a bad way.





* Racial encounter power, post-Healing Surge or Bloodied Str surges are just a few non-Feat options.

 

[JPL]

Gotcha. Well, it's a matter of degrees, I suppose --- I feel like the current system of racial abilities + feats + racial utility powers does a pretty good job of making the elves elfy and the dwarfs dwarfy, but I could see the argument for something more.

Pixies will need to push the envelope, that's for sure --- some sort of flight, some sort of invisibility, and apparently Tiny size. Madness, I say.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Gotcha. Well, it's a matter of degrees, I suppose --- I feel like the current system of racial abilities + feats + racial utility powers does a pretty good job of making the elves elfy and the dwarfs dwarfy, but I could see the argument for something more.

But note: even in the PHB, not all races have powers, such as Dwarves. IOW, not every race needs a stat mod & racial abilities & encounter powers & skill bonuses & tailored feats- give a race a bit more in one area and they can do without in another.

For example, going back to Half-Orcs vs all the other, much physically larger strong races. What if, instead of having the identical Str bonus as all of those, they simply got a +2 bonus to all Str-based skill checks? Just sayin'.