D&D 5E (2024) Tinkering with the Monk

[Willie the Duck]

it works but the foundation is not well built, we know what it is replicating far more these days

Can you elaborate?

I suspect the point is that the Monk, overall (throughout editions) is a dog's breakfast of tropes about martial artists. Also that it is still wedded to a version of that concept dreamed up by Brian Blume in 1975 with a lot of celestial cattle-ness about it that it can't shake.

To the former, the 2024 version has tried to shake off the 'inherent orientalism' tropes while still letting the people who want to play them as Remo Williams/ Kwai Chang Caine. It is arguable if they've succeeded.

To the later, well, it's still a high speed 'martial' class with lower hp, likely AC, and consistent damage output than a fighter that in exchange gets a bunch of situational perks and x/day-style benefits. I'd say what a 2024 monk can do with bonus action abilities and focus points are a lot more consistently usable than what they got in 1975 (or 2001) like being able to take less damage from falls -- if and only if you were next to a wall-- and the like.

So anyways, yeah the class both thematically and mechanically is still fighting to carve out a (specific) niche, but it does so a lot better than before. I can certainly understand reasonable people disagreeing on whether it has succeeded.

 

[mellored]

I suspect the point is that the Monk, overall (throughout editions) is a dog's breakfast of tropes about martial artists. Also that it is still wedded to a version of that concept dreamed up by Brian Blume in 1975 with a lot of celestial cattle-ness about it that it can't shake.

To the former, the 2024 version has tried to shake off the 'inherent orientalism' tropes while still letting the people who want to play them as Remo Williams/ Kwai Chang Caine. It is arguable if they've succeeded.

To the later, well, it's still a high speed 'martial' class with lower hp, likely AC, and consistent damage output than a fighter that in exchange gets a bunch of situational perks and x/day-style benefits. I'd say what a 2024 monk can do with bonus action abilities and focus points are a lot more consistently usable than what they got in 1975 (or 2001) like being able to take less damage from falls -- if and only if you were next to a wall-- and the like.

So anyways, yeah the class both thematically and mechanically is still fighting to carve out a (specific) niche, but it does so a lot better than before. I can certainly understand reasonable people disagreeing on whether it has succeeded.

Mechanically it has a strong niche. Highest maneuverability skirmisher, with a unique resource pool that meshes well with the base class.

Thematically it might not be for everyone, but I really like it mechanically.

It just was underpowered in 2014 and a tiny bit over tuned in 2024 (IMO).

 

[Mind of tempest]

I suspect the point is that the Monk, overall (throughout editions) is a dog's breakfast of tropes about martial artists. Also that it is still wedded to a version of that concept dreamed up by Brian Blume in 1975 with a lot of celestial cattle-ness about it that it can't shake.

To the former, the 2024 version has tried to shake off the 'inherent orientalism' tropes while still letting the people who want to play them as Remo Williams/ Kwai Chang Caine. It is arguable if they've succeeded.

To the later, well, it's still a high speed 'martial' class with lower hp, likely AC, and consistent damage output than a fighter that in exchange gets a bunch of situational perks and x/day-style benefits. I'd say what a 2024 monk can do with bonus action abilities and focus points are a lot more consistently usable than what they got in 1975 (or 2001) like being able to take less damage from falls -- if and only if you were next to a wall-- and the like.

So anyways, yeah the class both thematically and mechanically is still fighting to carve out a (specific) niche, but it does so a lot better than before. I can certainly understand reasonable people disagreeing on whether it has succeeded.

look we know martial arts fantasy heros are still a thing, hell we have a sub genre where the east decided to melt down our stuff into their stuff(I assume they find elves hot or something)

remo Williams is fine for low level but not for high level you know, no one is low fantasy at level 20

 

[Willie the Duck]

look we know martial arts fantasy heros are still a thing, hell we have a sub genre where the east decided to melt down our stuff into their stuff(I assume they find elves hot or something)

remo Williams is fine for low level but not for high level you know, no one is low fantasy at level 20

I'm not sure what you mean or how it relates to what I said. Can you elaborate and explain your position?

 

[Clint_L]

The 2014 class was already my favorite class and it only got stronger. Its a typical white room balance discussion, class and built strenght are often strongely dependent on the adventure, setting, the DM etc.

Some of my favorite player moments came from playing a drunken master 2014 monk and they would not be possible with other classes. Stunning a flying dragon out of air, chasing a fleeing carriage on foot and ramming an "immovable rod" in the wheels, going full jackie chan a lot of times.

Plus the flexibility of the monk is underrated. You can jump to ranged attackers or spell casters and punish them, you can tank a chokepoint for a short while with patient defense, you can basically fly around the battlefield and helping out with whatever is needed.

But yes if the adventure only has fights in bland square rooms the monk can underperform compared to other classes. It strengths are situational - but a good adventure has a lot of different situations and I felt never useless at worst and at best was often MVP because I could jump in and save the day with some crazy monk stuff.

You should try the 2024 monk. It can do all that stuff but now also excels in your bland square room scenario! It basically has no weaknesses.

 

[Flobby]

The class seems fine to me? I am not trying to "fix" it necessarily, just playing around with it.

 

[Retros_x]

You should try the 2024 monk. It can do all that stuff but now also excels in your bland square room scenario! It basically has no weaknesses.

I will! I am really excited to do but in the 24 game where I am a player, we only did just started and I did start as a wizard - just because I've never played a wizard before. Also a lot of fun, I went for 90% control and have almost no damage spells. But for my next game I definitely want to come back to the monk.

 

[Selas]

I played a level 7 pregen Monk for the Battle of Emridy Meadows LoG adventure, and boy was it solid even though it was a Mercy Monk. Ki points were much more manageable, had solid dpr, and was able to weave in both class and subclass abilities consistently without being resource starved. Ki points all coming back on SR and having the once per LR recovery helped with keeping the pace through the adventure. I was satisfied after the game was over and will definitely consider playing a Monk in the future (pregen even survived at the end if you're a Greyhawk fan)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

In my brief experience with lower level 2024 monk's.

I suggest reducing deflect attack a tad. Like 1d10-> 1d6.

Deflect attack should just use monk's unarmed damage die. You do everything else with the same die. Why is there an exception like this?

On top of that, I think the scaling is a lot more fair that way.
At low level 1d10+dex+monk level is huge and slightly over the top. At high level a d12 makes no big difference.