Tips & tactics for playing a druid?

[shilsen]

This idea that Druids need to take the multi-attack feat is a perfect example of why DM's still need to use their brains. Why should I druid need to have the multi-attack feat in order to use a lions natural weapons? Why does a druid wild-shaped into a wolf not get the scent feat? Because the ignorant game designers do not understand how animal bodies work.

Or perhaps because their understanding of animal bodies differs from yours? Or because they had different intentions/expectations of what a wildshaped druid should get? Incidentally, a druid can use the natural weapons. The feat just lets it use them better.

Do you think a lions abilities to claw and bite are a form of learning or a form of body function?

Mostly learning. Watch a young cub learning how to claw and bite. Read Joy Adamson's "Born Free" (and folowing books) about the release of a lioness raised in captivity into the wild, and the problems they faced because the animal was literally incapable of using its bite and claws as a lion raised in the wild can.

Do you think a wolf's ability to scent is a form of its nasal cavity or a form of a feat?

Not a feat, since feats don't exist in real life. But it is a combination of natural ability and learning to use the ability adequately.

If a Druid does not automatically know how to multi attack in a lion/tiger body why do they know how to improved grab in the body of an octopus?

Because one is a feat and one a special ability.

So I say a wolf gets the scent feat, irregardless of the polymorph spell's description, and I say that any feat an animal has that is due to its form of body, such as multi-attack, a Druid has available to them while they are in that form. To say that a Druid has to take additional feats to fully utilize a creatures body form is ludicrous and ignorant. No one will tell you that a Lion "learns" to use its claws and teeth in a fight, they will tell you they know how to use them instinctively. So to say a Druid needs to learn multi attack to use instinctive abilities of a creature who's form they assume is ignorant of real world animal behaviour and the prevelant beliefs of animal behaviour in the world of biologists who specialize in these things.

Nice house rule. And big assumptions.

A lions use of pounce, clawing, raking, etc... are an intuitive/instinctive use of their own bodies form and function, so to say a druid needs to "learn" a feat to gain use of such things is ludicrous.

See above.

Next thing I will hear is that a Druid cannot walk in its new animal form until they take the four-legged walking feat.

No, you won't, since that would make the wildshape ability too weak. The wildshape ability isn't meant to be "realistic". It's meant to be a useful and interesting ability in the context of the game.

P.S. Errant, sorry for the hijack, but sometimes I feel like responding to silly whining. It's a curse

 

[Treebore]

Still whining, being knowledgeable about "Born Free" doesn't make you anything like an expert. Wild Shape is a "magical" ability. So it should confer alll abilities needed to use the form, just like the Druid gets all of the elemental abilities at 16th level.

Improved Grab is a feat, look it up. Just in certain monster descriptions it is listed as an extraordinary ability. Which, BTW, you get according to the polymorph description.

I do not make general far reaching assumptions, I have a degree in Biology and a large number of my classes were about animal behaviours and adaptations.

 

[Darthjaye]

Bad news, if you read your 3.5 players HB it says that you gain all extraordinary abilities held by the form. Read your book better please shilsen. It's D&D not movie of the week.

 

[shilsen]

Still whining, being knowledgeable about "Born Free" doesn't make you anything like an expert.

No, but it - and having seen a fair number of animals of the same species raised in the wild and in captivity - does tell me that your claim (that a lion's ability to claw and bite is based primarily on physical characteristics) is an unwarranted assumption.

Wild Shape is a "magical" ability. So it should confer alll abilities needed to use the form, just like the Druid gets all of the elemental abilities at 16th level.

Why does Wildshape being a magical ability mean that it should confer all abilities? The spell Alter Self is magical too, but it doesn't confer all abilities. Same goes for Polymorph. And the Alternate Form ability. And the Change Shape ability. Since it's magical and essentially arbitrary, there's no "should" to it.

Improved Grab is a feat, look it up. Just in certain monster descriptions it is listed as an extraordinary ability. Which, BTW, you get according to the polymorph description.

I never said that a wildshaped druid doesn't gain Improved Grab. I was responding to the complaint in your post about the wildshaped druid not gaining multiattack.

I do not make general far reaching assumptions, I have a degree in Biology and a large number of my classes were about animal behaviours and adaptations.

And those classes taught you that a lion hunting, for example, was a purely physical/instinctual skill and had no component of learning? Some professor needed to get chased down by a lion

Bad news, if you read your 3.5 players HB it says that you gain all extraordinary abilities held by the form. Read your book better please shilsen.

Actually the PHB says that you gain all extraordinary special attacks but not the extraordinary special abilities. See the 3rd paragraph under the description of Polymorph, pg. 263. And, as I mentioned above, I was responding to Treebore's comment about the druid needing to take the multiattack feat.

It's D&D not movie of the week.

True, which is why I wasn't referring to a movie. Treebore made a comment based on 'realism' (at least that's what I assume his comments about lions and wolves was), so I responded in kind.

 

[ender_wiggin]

Umm........there is really no grounds to fight on this issue.

Wild shape is magic. You need to know exactly how the magic works in order to determine the rules surrounding it.

When the druid wildshapes into a lion, does she gain all the neural pathways that a naturally bred adult lion would have? If so, than she has the multiattack and all that jazz. Or does the druid wild shape with only the human neural pathways she (as a human) had. If that is true, then the "walk on four legs feat" might really be required.

However, because DnD is not real life, and magic is not science, DMs can adjudicate this this however they hell they feel necessary, and a DM (or player) who doesn't agree can't do a damn thing.

So stop arguing; you won't win because you can't.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Er, lions don't have the Multiattack feat. They have multiple attacks, which the druid does gain. The Multiattack feat would make the secondary attacks (the bite and rakes) at -2 to the primary attack rather than -5.
Improved Grab is not the same as Improved Grapple. They have different effects.

Some extraordinary abilities probably should convey, but don't. For example, you get racial skill bonuses and bonus feats, which means you get the wolf's Track feat and +4 to Survival checks when tracking by scent. But you don't gain the Scent ability. Or, you gain a horse's running speed, but not a cheetah's sprint ability. You gain a boar's ferocity ability, but not a wolverine's rage ability. (This latter would be interesting, especially if you really are compelled to fight in a frenzy until you or the opponent are dead.) If you're an elven druid, you lose the low-light vision, and if you're a halfling you lose your racial saving throw bonuses (including the one against fear, even though your mental abilities remain otherwise unchanged). Eh, it's not consistent, but it is usable.

And, since you only gain the form's bonus feats (those with a superscript B), it is true that you would have to downgrade the damage done in tiger or rhino form.

 

[Testament]

Natural Spell is a must have. Take it ASAP.

Bear and Great Cat forms are awesome for combat, improved grab on both, and massive strength for bears, or pounce for the cats can add to combat ability to no end.

Choice of animal companion is important. When you reach the mid levels, a Tiger is a great choice though. Watch what happens to one when you hit it with Animal Growth, you've got four improved grabbing greatswords going!

The Complete Divine features loads of brutal spells for druids, Spikes, Quill Blast and Murderous Mist are all horrifyingly powerful. Heck, the first two there are just downright broken. And Miasma is so borken it can't even be spelled right.

For spellcasting, while Druids are good blasters (Flame Strike anyone?), battlefield control is your forte. Soften Earth and Stone, Gust of Wind, Entangle, Briar Web, Spike Growth/Stones, Murderous Mist, Wall of Thorns, all of these can turn the battleground into a nightmare for attackers. If your party emphasises defensive tactics, with your help they can become nearly invulnerable.

Utility spells are also a strong point, Stone Shape is great for dungeon bashing, Warp Wood can make sniper's lives hell, and also has myriad other uses (I'm still discovering them!). At higher levels, you get some real gamebreakers, things like Transmute Metal to Wood (watch the look on the DM's face when you first drop that!), repel metal and stone...

 

[shilsen]

Umm........there is really no grounds to fight on this issue.

...

So stop arguing; you won't win because you can't.

Good point.

The Complete Divine features loads of brutal spells for druids, Spikes, Quill Blast and Murderous Mist are all horrifyingly powerful. Heck, the first two there are just downright broken. And Miasma is so borken it can't even be spelled right.

Luckily, they're errataed Miasma to have a save of Fort: Negates. I'm house-ruling or not using all of the others (esp. Quill Blast, as I mentioned on the first page of the thread).

 

[Henry]

I'll give even more reason not to fight on the issue: Let's try to be more civil towards one another, please.

I've loved Druid PC's since I played 1st edition, and someone pointed out to me just how fantastic they can be. A Druid PC can be useful in all situations, not just the wilderness, and their companions being beefed up as they are in 3.5 means they can almost be one-person adventure parties by themselves. All I can add to the excellent advice is: When you get your wildshape, research EVERY animal you can turn into, find the pros and cons of each shape. Two of the best choices at 5th to 7th level are leopards and black bears - leopards because of attacks and the speed burst, but black bears because of strength. Who wouldn't like another 19 STR character in the party to help batter down that door or move that boulder? Eagles can fly at an 80 speed, so they make for great reconnaisance, messengers, and for instances when the druid needs a quick getaway. A crocodile is fun when you need to have a natural swim speed and be dangerous, but use porpoise when you REALLY need to pour on the speed underwater. And don't underestimate wolverines. Look 'em up!

Good luck, and welcome to playing a very fun class.

 

[Klaus]

And remember that when you wild shape into an animal, you're type changes to match the type of your new form.

So wild shape (tiger) + Natural Spell + Animal Growth = Open Pretty Big Can O' Whupass!