To all the other "simulationists" out there...

[UngainlyTitan]

The trouble with 'realistic' combat systems is that the players die too easily. The attraction of D&D and (games like it) is that PC are hard to take out. The problem is that the one shot kills on sentries (by sneaking up) and or sniper fire is also impossible as per the rules.

In the op's presented scenario I would allow an instant kill, simply because it makes for a good story line but it would be pure DM fiat.

Thing is with the minion rules, one shot kills on sentries now becomes a possiblility, of course not all sentries will be minions. The way I look at it, given the move to more cinematic storytelling in 4e, many more 'realistic' things will be possible, though they may require the expenditure of additional resources.

Again in the op scenario, spending an action point to get a second surprise action and sneak attack could have taken care of the guard and as another pointed out, being between the guard and the bell could have given the rogue another action.

 

[mhensley]

Have you checked out The Riddle of Steel ? It has a lot more interesting/tactical combat model than GURPS - probably one the most 'realistic' things out there without trying to simulate every smallest detail.

Magic is terrible, but it is probably easiest part of the system to houserule.

Yes, I have. TRoS has an awesome combat system, but everything else about it is very lame. And as a bonus, support for it is pretty much dead. It seriously needs a cleaned up second edition with a new magic system and without the dull setting.

I've also taken a hard look at Rolemaster and Burning Wheel but judged them as being too difficult for me to actually run. With Rolemaster, I hate looking stuff up on charts and the percentile math. With BW, I can't grok the combat system.

 

[Professor Phobos]

GURPS is the pinnacle of simulationist systems. I've always wanted to love it, but the poor gal can't accept I only love her for her sourcebooks and not her system and so we fight all the time.

They even have these "Dungeon Fantasy" books designed to emulate old-school D&D.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Don't bet on it.

I'm fine with it if they don't want it. I just wish I could hear something for sure so I'd know whether or not I should start focussing on a different project.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

GURPS is the pinnacle of simulationist systems. I've always wanted to love it, but the poor gal can't accept I only love her for her sourcebooks and not her system and so we fight all the time.

They even have these "Dungeon Fantasy" books designed to emulate old-school D&D.

I'm curious. Why the hate for the system? I love it.

And yes, GURPS source books are amazing.

 

[Voss]

Actually, in dnd 4e the guard on top of the tower could be a minion. In other words, very little hp, so one-shot-killable, and at the same time, minions can do quite a lot of damage.

He could have been a weak little nobody in 3rd edition too, but the DM made him level appropriate. A level appropriate guard in 4e isn't going to be one-shotted either... in fact, based on the hit points we've seen, a 4e guard of an appropriate level is actually less likely to drop in a single shot, no matter how you try to take him out.

So for the specific situation that triggered the 'break' (not in general), 4e is even less appropriate.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The guard was a mook. A nobody. A "red shirt". But as we looked over his stats, there was no way the rogue could have eliminated him silently.

One thing that the D&D rules could probably have spelled out more clearly is that anyone who is a redshirt should have the STATS of a redshirt.

Otherwise, he ain't a redshirt.

I do believe 4e will spell this out more clearly.

If he's a mook, what was he doing with a giant bucket o' sneak-attack-absorbing HP? Why wasn't he a first level commoner with a 6 CON?

In other words, this wasn't a problem with the game system, per se, it was a problem with not applying the rules in quite the right way. Which was definately a common problem IMXP in 3e, so 4e can go a long way to fix this. 4e's simplicity should make it harder to make mistakes like that, because rather than kind of obliquely referring to redshirts as "maybe 3rd level at most," they'll say "Mook = These Rules. Use these rules when you want your bad guy to drop like a sickly little fly."

That doesn't have a whole lot to do with simulating anything, though. It's more about rules clarity. If the 3.5 rules were clearer, perhaps, simpler, your DM would have never made the mistake of giving a mook a bucket of HP.

So yay for fixing that!

 

[invokethehojo]

The guard stood there, unaware of the rogue, looking out over the surrounding area. But what could the rogue do? His only option was a sneak attack. So he did it, inflicting a nice chunk of damage. But the guard wasn't killed, and on his next action, he rang the bell.

The player became very frustrated, and rightfully so. The guard was a mook. A nobody. A "red shirt". But as we looked over his stats, there was no way the rogue could have eliminated him silently. He was a few levels lower than the rogue, but a "one-shot-kill" was still quiet simply impossible. All that preparation and cleverness, by the rules as written, meant nothing.

.

I know this won't help now but I ran into this same problem. My rule was that if a target is either COMPLETELY helpless (asleep) or TOTALLY unaware of the PC it was an automatic coup-de-grace. This would almost always kill the target but there was always a small chance he wouldl live, like in the movies where a guy gets his throat cut only to fire off a few more rounds before he goes down.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Wow, I saw that OP and thought, so now I make the guy on the rooftops a minion, cool.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

That doesn't have a whole lot to do with simulating anything, though. It's more about rules clarity. If the 3.5 rules were clearer, perhaps, simpler, your DM would have never made the mistake of giving a mook a bucket of HP.

Sad thing is, it was a WOTC module that gave the guard the stats. (Red Hand of Doom)

That said, had I been DMing, I would have changed it anyway. But in this case the DM that was running it has always been a "slave to the module" type of DM.