To balance high level mages.

[Mordane76]

I think what people are concerned about, Plane Sailing, is that those magic items mean less to a wizard than to a fighter.

If you have two Ftr20 and two Wiz20, and you strip both Ftr20 naked and put them up against creatures of CR20, the Ftr20 will be far less effective than the Wiz20 if you stripped them naked -- they would still have their spells, and could still wipe out the challenge fairly handily.

Luckily, items and wealth is part of having achieved a certain level; it is expected that someone of level 20 will have poweful items and can do things that most of the other classes can do as well. I don't think it diminishes the power of other classes -- there's always greater dispelling and disjunction for those truly worried about high level, magic-wielding psycho fighters. The best way to maintain class integrity, IMO, is DM planning -- much of the problem here is that high-level PCs are planning ahead; they know what they want to be able to do, and the rules let them do so. Monsters of the level that the PCs should be facing just have to be that much more intelligent; they have every right to plan for things as well.

Personally, it comes down to this: no matter what a wizard or sorcerer does, no matter how many plusses he adds to the weapon, he will never have as high a BAB as the fighter, and he will never have as many feats. And no matter what the fighter does, he will never be able to sit down for fifteen minutes and prepare a slew of spells that include such doozies as hellball and vengeful gaze of god.

The only way for these two to ever become similar in these regards is for the fighter to become a wizard and the wizard to become a fighter.

 

[pisceanmars]

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i don't see a problem with a wizard being so powerful at later levels. he's earned it, he's survived his less than 30 hp time of life and has built up defenses against his own demise. in the early levels a fighter will usually survive a battle more often than a wizard of equal level, and later on this is equalled and surpassed in certain ways by the wizard. the fighter will always beat the wizard if endurance is the key in a battle, and all wizards will try to prevent a battle lasting more than 6 seconds. a wizard can be extremely powerfull, granted, but it's all in the name of his survived history, and as stated before a fighter will have ample oppurtunity in most historical situations to deal with mages and have both tactics and items for such.

 

[apoptosis]

actually my thoughts were that it becomes almost meaningless to have these high level fighter vs. wiz discussions, because at higher levels and with enough magic items, the distinction between the classess starts becoming less and less.

Because in the end, the argument becomes about the wizards spells (and to lesser degree magic items) vs. the fighters magic items (which gives him spell ability like a wizard). So in essence it becomes a wizard vs. a quasi wizard with a sword (and more hitpoints) battle

wasnt a particularly brilliant argument one way or the other, but just an observation of what occurs at high levels.

Apop

 

[Al]

Looks like this thread has been resurrected from the dead...

So, neither of these tactics would work, because MS, CoC, Energy Drain, and Enervation are all instantaneous spells.

That is a very severe matter of interpretation. Read the ELH, p. 108, under 'Dealing with Time Stop'. The strict interpretation (i.e. not even the standard interpretation) is that you can't use touch/ranged touch attacks. An even stricter interpretation is that no 'single target' spells are allowed. However, even under this extremely strict variant, it explicitly states Fireballs are legitimate. Hence, Maximised Meteor Swarms are legitimate. Five of them (2 Rod of Greater Maximisation and a few scrolls). *720* points of damage.

As for the main resurrection, I'd go with hong. This statement:

actually my thoughts were that it becomes almost meaningless to have these high level fighter vs. wiz discussions, because at higher levels and with enough magic items, the distinction between the classess starts becoming less and less.

is clearly a mistake. Not only do the wizard have a tremendous amount of utility spells that the fighter cannot hope to match, but in terms of damage/round capability, the wizard far outstrips the hapless fighter. Smackdowns excluded on both sides, the poor fighter cannot hope to match the sheer damage capability of Time Stops, Meteor Swarms and the like. Neither does he have 'disabling' power offered through enchantments, save-or-dies or polymorphs. Indeed, there is a very real difference between the fighter and the wizard at high level. The fighter still uses the time-honoured tactic of HP bashing. The wizard, whilst he can blast enemies through HP attacks, has numerous attacks which circumvent HPs altogether.

That, apoptosis is the major difference between the fighter and the wizard at high-levels.