ToB - preparing less maneuvers than your max.

Corwin of Amber

First Post
I'm playing a Swordsage that has a dip into Crusader for the pre reqs for Ruby Knight Vindicator. It is rather annoying determining granted maneuvers each combat, but I don't want to lose the usefulness of that level by not bothering with the Crusader's abilities.

My question is this: Is it possible to only prepare 2 maneuvers (out of a possible 5) so that you don't have to figure out which ones are granted or not? This seems akin to leaveing spell slots open to fill later, but I haven't noticed anything mentioning this possibility in ToB.

EDIT: I was also wondering if the PrC allowed you to change out known maneuvers for new ones when you level, similar to the way it says in the base classes?
 
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You're not the first to ask...

Sage Advice Archive said:
Q: Dear Sage,
Could a crusader (Tome of Battle, p.8) choose to learn or ready fewer maneuvers than he or she would be entitled to?
--Joe & Sam

A: No.

You must learn and ready the full number of maneuvers entitled to you by your level.

Otherwise, you’d be able to cycle through your favorites faster, which defeats the purpose of the crusader’s unique recharge mechanic.

Of course, the Sage's rulings are only worthwhile if you believe that he's right more often than not. Hands up, anyone?

For recap purposes, here are the relevant rules (emphasis mine):

Crusader said:
You can ready all five maneuvers you know at 1st
level, but as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you must
choose which maneuvers to ready.


You ready maneuvers by praying for 5 minutes. The maneuvers you
choose
remain readied until you decide to pray again and change them. You need not sleep or rest for any long period of time in order to ready your maneuvers; any time you spend 5 minutes in prayer, you can change your readied maneuvers.

The way I see it, you could read that either way. You could argue that it's your choice which maneuvers to ready, and that such a choice naturally includes how many maneuvers to ready. You could argue that the phrase "can ready all five maneuvers" is not the same as "must ready all five maneuvers" and that as such you can ready fewer.

Alternatively, it could reasonably be argued that the apparently-optional bit at the beginning is just there to clarify the fact that at later levels you can't ready all the maneuvers you know and will thus have to choose a sub-set. As such, you'd be reading that first sentence, more or less, as "You can ready all five maneuvers you know at 1st level: this doesn't mean you have the option to ready fewer, we're just making the point that you won't be able to ready all the maneuvers you know later on."

The class text at no point contains anything that definitively establishes how it works one way or another.

Much as I hate to bring this into it, this is one class where the DM's fiat is quite reasonably the final word. You pray for maneuvers. They're granted or withheld by a divine being of some sort or another, round by round, on an arbitrary basis. Annoy that divine being by trying to get slippery with the way your maneuvers are granted, and you may well find yourself not granted any at all...

Conversely, your deity might be bang alongside the idea of letting you get away with it. A deity that admires cunning - or simply one that wants his Divine Crusaders to stab as much face as possible - could well be delighted at your little exploit and thus keep handing out the asswhuptastic goodies without let or hindrance. If they're sufficiently chaotic - or your DM sufficiently undecided - it could be a coin-toss between you being granted "maneuvers" or "a lightning bolt to the pre-frontal lobe".

As you're going into Ruby Knight I-Windicator, I assume that your deity will be Wee Jas unless the class has been house-reflavoured. I have no idea whether the goddess of death and magic in your campaign would be up for a little light class-feature chicanery... On this occasion, the rules text just doesn't support one position over another to an extent adequate to override the "god decides" fluff. Rule Zero is of course always in force, but sometimes it's more obviously in force than others, and this is one of 'em. Sorry :(

EDIT:

1) It's worth noting that the Divine Recovery ability (Windicator 2) not only allows you to recover a maneuver as a swift action, but that the maneuver is also immediately granted. As such, you pretty much can recycle the same couple of maneuvers over and over, at least until you're forced to take an immediate action. I realise you still have to wait for the ones you want, if your DM didn't allow you to ready fewer, but it's better than nothing.

2) Again, sorry, but there's nothing in the rules to suggest that prestige classes which advance your initiator level also allow you to swap maneuvers. The swapping is based on class level, not initiator level: the way it's written, it's essentially a class feature. As such, unless a prestige class says otherwise you can't use levels in a PrC to swap out lower-level maneuvers. The Sage said:

Sage Advice said:
Q: Can you switch maneuvers that you know for ones that you don't know?
A: Yes. The crusader, swordsage, and warblade can trade one maneuver known for another at certain levels (see their respective descriptions in the Tome of Battle). (Prestige classes that grant maneuvers can't trade maneuvers known.) However, you may only trade one maneuver known for another at a time.

Just for once, I agree.
 
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Thanks for the feedback, I had the same problem with the iterpretation of the various qualifiers such as "can" and "choose." Seeing as I'm not gaining a great mechanical advantage by doing this with only level 1 maneuvers, I don't think my DM will mind. Rule Zero tends to favor streamlining vs. strict adherence to rules (at least in my group).

As for the second point, I figued would not work that way, but it never hurts to ask.
 

Seeing as I'm not gaining a great mechanical advantage by doing this with only level 1 maneuvers, [...]

You do realise that if you're dipping Crusader later on, you can take higher-than-1st-level maneuvers, yes? Your initiator level determines the highest-level maneuver you can select when you first take a level in a martial adept class. When dipping ToB classes, it's always best to do so as late as possible in order to net yourself more powerful maneuvers... particularly if - as in your case - you'll never have sufficient levels in the base class to swap out maneuvers known!
 

No, you have to ready all the maneuvers you're able to. If you just don't care about any beyond 2 or 3, let the DM pick, whatever. But you definitely can't do that as a Crusader to game the system. Crusaders already have the best recharge mechanic because it requires NO action on their part to get the maneuvers back. The fact that you in turn don't always have the maneuver you really want right away is the ONLY balancing factor for that.

You can take Extra Granted Maneuver once, to reduce the maximum possible wait time by 1 round, but that's basically it.
 

You do realise that if you're dipping Crusader later on, you can take higher-than-1st-level maneuvers, yes? Your initiator level determines the highest-level maneuver you can select when you first take a level in a martial adept class. When dipping ToB classes, it's always best to do so as late as possible in order to net yourself more powerful maneuvers... particularly if - as in your case - you'll never have sufficient levels in the base class to swap out maneuvers known!

They way my class works out it's either a 1 level dip in Fighter or Crusader early on, my main class is going to be Swordsage, so I'm taking the Crusader and Cleric levels 1st to maximize my Swordsage maneuvers. Basically I want to make my character less MAD by having only wisdom and dexterity as high scores and taking Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade. Along with those feats and levels in Swordsage/Cleric/Vindicator I get AC and spells from my wisdom and plus AC, attack bonus, and damage bonus from dexterity.

No, you have to ready all the maneuvers you're able to. If you just don't care about any beyond 2 or 3, let the DM pick, whatever. But you definitely can't do that as a Crusader to game the system. Crusaders already have the best recharge mechanic because it requires NO action on their part to get the maneuvers back. The fact that you in turn don't always have the maneuver you really want right away is the ONLY balancing factor for that.

You can take Extra Granted Maneuver once, to reduce the maximum possible wait time by 1 round, but that's basically it.

Upon reading this I looked over Crusader again, I thought that it could only use each maneuver once/encounter before spending a standard action to use Adaptive Style. I now see that what I was proposing would be rather broken if you were to use only your 2-3 best maneuvers as a high level Crusader.

Does anyone think it would be too powerful to decide the order randomly at the start of each day and have them become ready in that same order for all of the day's encounters?
 

Not sure if it'd be "too broken," but it's definitely a power boost. You're eliminating the randomness aspect (you of course may not like the order they come in, but now you KNOW that order), which allows you to plan for things. I don't necessarily think it'd be very abuseable, and for the sake of game speed I could see a DM allowing it just so you're not constantly rolling or drawing cards or whatever you do to decide which maneuvers become granted.
 

I believe that it is possible to build a crusader who is granted more maneuvers than he readies/knows?, by taking prcs which grant maneuvers granted. Can't recall where I last saw it though. Brilliantgameologist?
 

Yes, Runestar, it is, but requires Prc dipping (for 3 levels, more than 1 Prc) for an extra granted maneuver
or
having another Martial adept to asborb the extra known and taking all the maneuvers so the Crusader side has to have less (because can't ready same maneuver twice).
 


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