ToB vs Core Classes

[styker]

I was thinking to use ToB classes in my campaing but im afraid that the core classes (fighter, barbarian, paladin and ranger) became useless near the blade-magic users... what do you think? Can these classes exist together or ToB is like a substitution to Core combatant classes?

 

[Nifft]

- Barbarian out-damages ToB classes at levels 1 and 2, and above level 5.
- Ranger with access to all the goodies in Spell Compendium remains a strong choice for archery.
- Paladin with access to all the goodies in Spell Compendium remains very strong against [Evil] foes.
- Fighter remains exactly as weak as he is in Core. And that's quite weak.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Creamsteak]

I think they are probably more powerful (about as much as some of the PHB II classes). The crusader does mildly steal the Paladin's thunder, and the other two martial classes somewhat steal the fighter's thunder, but the Ranger and Barbarian are still distinct enough to work well with them.

I think a lot of people have introduced them to thier games without them stealing the thunder entirely. Personally I've ran a game JUST using the ToB classes and found it pretty fun for the time I played it.

 

[Zurai]

- Ranger with access to all the goodies in Spell Compendium remains a strong choice for archery.

Not to mention that there is a grand total of one useful maneuver that works with ranged weapons, and it's a 9th level one. Archery, at the least, is quite safe from the Tome of Battle.

 

[Nifft]

Not to mention that there is a grand total of one useful maneuver that works with ranged weapons, and it's a 9th level one. Archery, at the least, is quite safe from the Tome of Battle.

There's actually a bunch:

Many Stances (particularly Blood in the Water) are downright awesome.

Tiger Claw extra attack Boosts work fine.

Time Stands Still is ... shockingly awesome. Note there's no restrictions on what kind of full attack actions you get.

Fan the Flames and Shadow Garrot are ranged attacks.

The movement Boosts work great (Sudden Leap and the Shadow Hand teleportations).

Cheers, -- N

 

[brehobit]

IMO they steal a lot of thunder, but not quite all. Warblade > Fighter. Swordsage > Monk. But both fighter and monk are fairly weak. Ranged ranger is still quite good, esp. with SC spells. I really do think the barbarian gets hosed too, but I only play levels 1-9 or so. A warblade really can out damage a barbarian once you get around 9th level or so. Crusaders just never drop.

That said, pretty much any warrior in the game should take a ToB class at 9th and maybe 10th level...

Mark

 

[Creamsteak]

Another point that comes to mind is what style of game you already play, and what do your players typically do? The ToB classes are a bit slower in my opinion (since they have a lot of the complexity of a spellcaster, plus all the constant manuevering and jousting for position that melee classes do).

 

[NightCrawler]

I believe that ToB is a ''very strong'' book which a DM must study well before allowing his Players to pick up classes from this book... Warblades can deal ''huge'' numbers of dmg (especially in higher lvls) and so yes they seem to replace the old school fighter... Crusaders are also very strong chars (really hard to drop) so one might think that they replace paladin... Swordsages have some great maneuvers that make them better than a normal monk or fighter (again)...

Adding those classes in your game must be followed by adding some more difficulty in your game... If you allow your players to pick up one of those classes try to drop em a fully equiped warblade and his party to make things harder... Remember: if they use it, you can also use it too...

 

[Rhun]

Keep in mind though: most maneuvers are a standard action, meaning that if the TOB class uses a maneuver, they don't get their iterative attacks. This may not be a huge factor, especially at low levels, but it does bring some balance to them at higher levels.

 

[Nadaka]

Not to mention that there is a grand total of one useful maneuver that works with ranged weapons, and it's a 9th level one. Archery, at the least, is quite safe from the Tome of Battle.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=831418
Pure warblade archer. Note that it "sucks", in that I have not implemented a couple tricks that let me more than double the couple thousand damage it does in the first couple rounds.

That said. Martial Adepts have two striking advantages, its hard to make one that sucks and they are fun as hell to play. You get more options and nearly all the options are nice, but not significantly more power. A well built fighter, paladin, ranger or barbarian can out-damage any martial adept (if you disallow a certain crusader infinite damage trick).