Tolkien / Humanist Elves?

[I'm A Banana]

There are definately some cool ideas here....

But I just get to attatched to my gumdrop fairy elves. ^_^;

 

[Ace]

I have always been more attracted to the Tolkien view of Elves (as opposed to the FR or standard D&D elves). In my mind, Elves should be wise and powerful; beautiful yet terrible enemies. I have been thinking about game mechanics to reflect this.

A question for those of you who use ECL +1 or +2 modifiers for elves:

What changes do you make to the Elves' racial abilities to account for this change?

My elf race +2 ECL

Fae Racial Template various immunities

+2 Dex +2 Cha

Night Vision, Far Sight +2 to spot, search, listen

Secret/Concealed Door thing from PHB

Inate Spells as apprentice sorcerer plus any bonus spell for high stats to any spell levels these stack with normal Sorcerer level if appropriate

Immortal, Doesn't Scar, Unaging, Immune to all Disease

Prefered class -- Sorcerer, Spellsinger or Bard

Thats a lot for ECL +2 Actually

 

[Tsyr]

My elves are drawn directly from Elfquest in all but their ancient history (IE, mine don't come from space, but rather another plane).

Not human, really, but not a superior race by default. Even the High Ones.

Well, the High Ones are "superior" in a technical sense, but even they are capable of bad things...

But most of them are just as capeable of flaws as any human. Look at (in Elfquest, for those who are familiar with it) Pike, Rayek, Tyldak, Winnowil, Bearclaw, you name it... all characters that can definetly err.

 

[fusangite]

If one were to adapt Tolkien elves into D&D rules -- something that is basically impossible, they would need a horrendous ECL. For a start, they are simultaneously present and aware on the material, shadow and ethereal planes.

However, rules aside, I think considering the idea of the Tolkienesque idea of racial nobility is very much worth considering, especially as it seemed, based on the last movie, to sail right over Peter Jackson's head. Such ideas cannot simply be applied to one race without consideration for the general theme and structure of the world, though. I wouldn't go that route unless I were going to accept the more general Tolkien premise about the nature of goodness and nobility.

As for ideas about how to run elves, I have tried a few in addition to those already canvassed. Only two are really worthy of note:

1. The Greg Stafford/Glorantha elves: In Stafford's world, dwarves are humanoid incarnations of stone and elves, humanoid incarnations of plants. Gloranthan elves therefore are especially vulnerable to fire and think in a strangely plant-like way.

2. Modern elves: I believe there are elves in the modern world; most women (and many men e.g. Tom Cruise) on TV and in movies fall into this category -- between 4'10" and 5'5" with incredibly fine features, slight build, abnormally thin with an eerily powerful presence/charisma that makes people stare at them. These creatures are flighty and capricious and have intense, short-term interactions with people -- mainly other elves but occasionally humans.

 

[Azure Trance]

If one were to adapt Tolkien elves into D&D rules -- something that is basically impossible, they would need a horrendous ECL. For a start, they are simultaneously present and aware on the material, shadow and ethereal planes.

Not really. If people clicked on my link on the first post ;D ;D ;D They would see Col's D20 conversion. The Noldar are only +3 ECL, Sindar +2 ...

 

[Azure Trance]

However, rules aside, I think considering the idea of the Tolkienesque idea of racial nobility is very much worth considering, especially as it seemed, based on the last movie, to sail right over Peter Jackson's head. Such ideas cannot simply be applied to one race without consideration for the general theme and structure of the world, though. I wouldn't go that route unless I were going to accept the more general Tolkien premise about the nature of goodness and nobility.

Could you elaborate a bit more on Tolkiens premise on his nature of goodness and nobility? Like I said I'm toying with the idea of making elves superior (a subrace, anyway, not all elves) and would like to see the ramifications of doing so. Personally I thought it would have fit in since I'm using the book of the righteous mythology when the elves were a descendent race from the first uber-race known as the Div, while the other ones (human, dwarf, etc) came from a completely different source.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Also, that bit about elves existing simultaneously on the material and shadow planes is patently untrue. At best, those elves who have dwelt in the light of Aman have power against both the Seen (those who inhabit the material world) and the Unseen (those who inhabit the shadow world). Your standard Avari (wood elf) has no such power.

Gez: In general, The Hobbit isn't the best of sources to use when describing Tolkien elves; it's JRRT lite. I'd say that while there's a decent case to be made for the Avari being pretty close to D&D elves (and even then, the immortality and cold and disease resistances are a pretty big power-up from D&D elves), the Noldor and Sindar certainly aren't. JRRT elves aren't archangels, by any means; I'm surprised that most people don't get the obvious fact that Elrond, Galadriel, Fingolfin, and others might just be powerful because (in D&D terms) they have lots of character levels. However, Noldor/Sindar are equal or superior to Men (even First Age Edain) in every respect, which makes them NOT ECL +0 races. (Tolkien dwarves might be an ECL race too, for that matter.)

Pelosan Emperor:

My elves (an FR/JRRT mix):

+2 Dexterity (wood elves); +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma (grey elves); +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma (high elves)
Medium size
Elven base speed is 30 feet
Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects.
+2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects.
Cold resistance 5.
Immune to mundane and magical disease and scarring.
Low-light vision: Elves can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Perform, Search, Spot, and Wilderness Lore checks (wood); Craft (shipwright), Listen, Perform, Profession (sailor), Search, and Spot checks (moon); and Craft (any), Listen, Perform, Search, and Spot checks (high). An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for the door.
Elves are immortal. They do not suffer penalties for aging, and eventually choose to depart for Arvandor instead of dying as other races. However, elves cannot be raised or resurrected, except by a wish or miracle spell.
ECL +1 (wood); +2 (grey, high): Elves are treated as though one level (or two levels) higher for purposes of gaining experience.

Note that I do think that my high elves are balanced, mainly because an ECL +2 race with a Con penalty is incredibly sucky and undesirable to play. It does mean that NPC high elf wizards are pretty deadly, but PC high elves in general are likely to be few and far between.

 

[LoneWolf23]

I've become enamoured of late with the idea of having the elves create Plato's Republic, the philosopher's perfect society. In a nutshell and converted for flavor and gaming a bit

[Snip]

- The council is the wisest of the elves, and the most powerful. All 20th level adventurers. They have no possessions, no family, no friends outside the council. But they rule with absolute power.

What about the Epic Level Elves? Do they leave the Council to join an Uber-Council of all Elves?

I do like this idea, although I think this social model, which is by definition very lawful and restricted, would fit in more with the Dwarves (who are respective of Traditions) or Gnomes (who would enjoy such a logical approach), as opposed to the Freedom Loving Elves.

I'm a fan of Dragon #279's approach to Elven society, as a group of Individuals who care intensely for one another. Each Elf is encouraged from birth to choose his or her own path in life, but all are also taught to look out for one another, and to respect and protect the beautiful world given to them by their god. (I also liked the idea that young elves were lustful, libertine little nippers. )

I would also portray Elves as having a culture very much inspired by the ancient Celts and Norse, with individuals living their lives passionatly and with a strong sense of personal honor (as opposed to social honor). Like the Celts, Elves see the world as a wild, magical thing (hence their favoring of wizardry), and live their lives to the fullest, throwing themselves passionatly into whatever they do, whether it's weaving a blanket of fine elven silks or fighting against a horde of savage Orcs; This is why everything Elves do is so outstanding: they put all their passion into it. Restraint shouldn't be an elven virtue.

And regarding Elven government... Chaotic Good societies exist through a mixture of respect for others and a desire for friendship and liberty. Leadership should be awarded through merit; in this way, I agree that the rulers of an Elven community should always be it's Highest Level Elf. But this leadership would be based entirely on his competance and how much the community has come to like him. And any Elven Chieftain's rule would be guided by frequent community meetings, where grievences between individuals would be arbitrated and problems concerning the whole community would be discussed, to find resolutions (like the Norse "thing")

 

[hong]

2. Modern elves: I believe there are elves in the modern world; most women (and many men e.g. Tom Cruise) on TV and in movies fall into this category -- between 4'10" and 5'5" with incredibly fine features, slight build, abnormally thin with an eerily powerful presence/charisma that makes people stare at them. These creatures are flighty and capricious and have intense, short-term interactions with people -- mainly other elves but occasionally humans.

Note that these are not elves, but pod people. Make sure you don't squeeze them too hard, or they go pop with a weird squishy sound.


Hong "Elvis didn't die, he just went home" Ooi

 

[fusangite]

Could you elaborate a bit more on Tolkiens premise on his nature of goodness and nobility? Like I said I'm toying with the idea of making elves superior (a subrace, anyway, not all elves) and would like to see the ramifications of doing so. Personally I thought it would have fit in since I'm using the book of the righteous mythology when the elves were a descendent race from the first uber-race known as the Div, while the other ones (human, dwarf, etc) came from a completely different source.

Strangely, I want to begin by recommending a book on Latin American history called Faces of Honour as it describes a value set very similar to Tolkien's.

In some ways, Tolkien was a modern racist in that he believed that the race of which you were a member transmitted a basic nature to you -- your intelligence, capacity to create art, sense of morality. However, the collective nature of a race was not changed by genetics but by the conduct of members of the race, especially its leaders. Thus, the Hobbits become collectively a more noble people over the course of LOTR because of the conduct of four members of the race.

However, because your nobility was largely determined by your race, it was difficult for those of ignoble races -- Haradrim, Black Numenoreans, Orcs, etc. to act nobly. In fact, trolls and orcs were so twisted by nature, it was nigh-impossible to overcome this. Similarly, it was second nature to the Noldor to do the "right thing" in any given situation. The inherent nature of a race was largely determined at the point of their creation by the Valar but could be altered by noble deeds by the race's members over time. Such deeds might have one of two results: either it could split a race in two -- the Dunedain and the Black Numenoreans or it could elevate or denigrate the race as a whole.

I hope this helps.