D&D 5E Toll the Chest

[Romne]

First, I would ask: "Are you sure you want to cast toll the dead on the chest-you-suspect-is-a-mimic? Remember, if it is a creature, the sound of dolorous bells might attract unwanted attention." This may not be directly related to your line of inquiry, but it's really important to emphasize that there is a potential cost to the course of action.

Then, if they decided to proceed and the mimic is able to observe this hostile spell being cast, I would determine initiative. It's possible the mimic might even act first, attacking prematurely as it realizes its cover is blown. How that initiative is resolved is very much a matter to be tailored to each group - my way may not be your way - but I would say some manner of resolving initiative would be in order. (NOTE: there may be exceptions, for example a high level party encountering a single mimic doesn't really need to slow down to the micromanagement scale of initiative rolling)

And then, once toll the dead is cast on that player's turn, it would affect the mimic just as it would any other creature.

Wouldn't the mimic need Arcane knowledge or Spellcraft, etc. to even recognize that the spell the player is casting is offensive in nature? If it can't recognize the spell being cast, why would the chest automatically assume it's cover is blown? These mimics don't have a very high intelligence level or any arcane training at all.
.....;D

 

[Hriston]

But how do I know the chest is ordinary?

You don't. Why would it matter?

 

[Maxperson]

Except that noticing an ordinary chest is not noticing a threat.

Yes it is. Every last chest is a potential threat, because they can all be trapped. An ordinary chest is 100% as much of a threat as a troll that isn't going to be hostile.

What, they don't notice the walls, the ceiling, and the floor before the start of combat?

That's not relevant. As long as they don't notice a threat, per RAW that threat can surprise them.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You don't. Why would it matter?

Because if I don't know it's ordinary then I don't know it's not a mimic. and if I don't know it's not a mimic, I'm not going to be surprised if it attacks me.

If you can't understand that, then we don't live in the same universe, so goodbye.

 

[Hriston]

Yes it is. Every last chest is a potential threat, because they can all be trapped. An ordinary chest is 100% as much of a threat as a troll that isn't going to be hostile.

Potential threats, sure. But the rules are concerned with actual threats because you only determine surprise once combat starts.

That's not relevant. As long as they don't notice a threat, per RAW that threat can surprise them.

Not if noticing potential threats counts, and they've already noticed all the other potential threats laying about. Then they can't be surprised.

 

[Hriston]

Because if I don't know it's ordinary then I don't know it's not a mimic. and if I don't know it's not a mimic, I'm not going to be surprised if it attacks me.

If you can't understand that, then we don't live in the same universe, so goodbye.

That's true of every single thing in the D&D universe, so you would never be surprised by anything.

 

[Maxperson]

Potential threats, sure. But the rules are concerned with actual threats because you only determine surprise once combat starts.

The rules ARE concerned with potential threats, as you have acknowledged more than once with your example of the non-hostile troll being a potential threat.

Not if noticing potential threats counts, and they've already noticed all the other potential threats laying about. Then they can't be surprised.

This is a misreading of the rule. The rule does not say, "Any character or monster that doesn't notice any threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.", which is how you are interpreting it. It says, "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."

Let's say that there are three threats about to enter combat, Orcs(threat #1) in front of them, Wargs(threat #2) coming out of the forest, and hidden goblin archers(threat #3). The party notices threats #1 and #2, but not #3, then #3 surprises them because it's a threat that they didn't notice. That's RAW. And it was backed up by the designers.

 

[Hriston]

The rules ARE concerned with potential threats, as you have acknowledged more than once with your example of the non-hostile troll being a potential threat.

That wasn't my example. @Crimson Longinus brought up the troll in post #95 of this thread in response to me saying that having suspicion that something might be a threat is not the same as noticing an actual threat.

This is a misreading of the rule. The rule does not say, "Any character or monster that doesn't notice any threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.", which is how you are interpreting it. It says, "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."

Let's say that there are three threats about to enter combat, Orcs(threat #1) in front of them, Wargs(threat #2) coming out of the forest, and hidden goblin archers(threat #3). The party notices threats #1 and #2, but not #3, then #3 surprises them because it's a threat that they didn't notice. That's RAW. And it was backed up by the designers.

I'd ask you for a citation, but I would be <ahem> surprised if you could produce one. That's because this was clarified back in 2015, but not how you're imagining. I posted a link to the tweet from lead designer, Jeremy Crawford, up thread in post #88. Here, I'll post it again.

 

[Maxperson]

That wasn't my example. @Crimson Longinus brought up the troll in post #95 of this thread in response to me saying that having suspicion that something might be a threat is not the same as noticing an actual threat.

And yet your words indicated potential, not actual. A troll peacefully walking by is not a threat. Not even a little bit. Yet you said that it was a noticed threat. It's not. It's only a noticed potential threat.

This is from the clarification in the Sage Advice on surprise.

"To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising."

You must be caught off guard, which the cleric in the OP could not be by the Mimic. Usually you get caught off guard by stealth or an enemies special ability, like when a Mimic exists and a PC is not suspicious of it. However, if you are on guard like the cleric, you cannot be surprised.

 

[Hriston]

And yet your words indicated potential, not actual. A troll peacefully walking by is not a threat. Not even a little bit. Yet you said that it was a noticed threat. It's not. It's only a noticed potential threat.

Yeah, if it ends up attacking you. If not, it doesn't matter because we're not determining surprise at that point. Sorry you keep being confused about what I mean when I write words. This keeps happening, so maybe it's not me.

This is from the clarification in the Sage Advice on surprise.

"To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising."

You must be caught off guard, which the cleric in the OP could not be by the Mimic. Usually you get caught off guard by stealth or an enemies special ability, like when a Mimic exists and a PC is not suspicious of it. However, if you are on guard like the cleric, you cannot be surprised.

That doesn't say anything about being surprised by a threat while noticing other threats. What about that claim which was supposedly backed up by the designers?