What I think I might do is give them a passive perception at the beginning to alert them there is at least one trap in the room. Then I'll let them search, but I'll make the DCs such that they only have a 50/50 chance of finding them. And if they fail, then their characters have to act on the assumption there are no traps.
Tomb of Horrors is not working out (spoilers)
- Thread starter blalien
- Start date
What I think I might do is give them a passive perception at the beginning to alert them there is at least one trap in the room. Then I'll let them search, but I'll make the DCs such that they only have a 50/50 chance of finding them. And if they fail, then their characters have to act on the assumption there are no traps.
Saagael
First Post
I would highly suggest looking at some of the 4thCore adventures, and maybe taking a page from their book. The Revenge of the Iron Lich adventure is one I recently ran and it is very deadly and fun.
Some notes on making things more challenging:
* Don't use passive perception.
* More importantly, once the players roll perception, they can't roll it again. If they didn't see anything, then no amount of searching will clue them into it.
* I don't know what level this is, but you could add 10 to the DCs if they are succeeding too much.
* Deal healing surge damage. Don't just deal 2d10 damage, deal 2d4 surges in damage.
* Punish the players for lingering in areas while they deliberate and bemoan their choices. Maybe traps recharge after 5 minutes and attacks them again for 2 surges of damage.
* Give the players incentive to leave. Maybe a room fills with gas, and for every turn you end in the gas, you make save or die. The players will surely leave, even if they don't want to venture further.
Anyway, these are just some things I learned while attempting to run a "super scary and deadly" adventure. Use them as you see fit, and good luck!
Some notes on making things more challenging:
* Don't use passive perception.
* More importantly, once the players roll perception, they can't roll it again. If they didn't see anything, then no amount of searching will clue them into it.
* I don't know what level this is, but you could add 10 to the DCs if they are succeeding too much.
* Deal healing surge damage. Don't just deal 2d10 damage, deal 2d4 surges in damage.
* Punish the players for lingering in areas while they deliberate and bemoan their choices. Maybe traps recharge after 5 minutes and attacks them again for 2 surges of damage.
* Give the players incentive to leave. Maybe a room fills with gas, and for every turn you end in the gas, you make save or die. The players will surely leave, even if they don't want to venture further.
Anyway, these are just some things I learned while attempting to run a "super scary and deadly" adventure. Use them as you see fit, and good luck!
Saagael
First Post
I'm not sure how successful you'll be in trying to force the players to act as if they don't have knowledge they have; that would end badly in my group. What I would suggest telling them that there may be a trap in the room (this may or may not be true. Switch it up. Misdirection is fun!).
If they fail their check, don't just tell them they don't find traps, tell them that they really think there's a trap in a not trapped area. If they'v'e pumped Perception as much as you say, they'll think they're just that good.
Do this every so often, so sometimes failure means they don't see anything, and sometimes they see traps that aren't there. After this, even when the players see a trap because they succeeded the check, they may try to find a way around it, or they'll disregard the warning, thinking that its a bad roll.
I do this to my players and I love the confusion that ensues.
* Player rolls for detect magic. Fumbles it, still rolls really high thanks to high skill mod.
* "That oversized urn seems to have lots of magic, perhaps like an artifact"
* Player proceeds to try to dislodge the urn, hoping for riches.
* Player finds out its a normal urn after 2 adventures of carrying it around. No one else bothered to question him.
Pentius
First Post
So, you're playing Tomb of Horrors. Your players search every corner for secrets, they agonize over every decision, and any sense of immersion is lost in the dungeon crawl, but, partially because of their careful approach, they haven't lost a character yet.
Isn't that pretty much exactly how a player-challenging old-school tournament module ought to be?
And if the players are actively searching every corner already, does it really matter what their passive perception is?
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
If you consider HOW people are perceiving a trap, and simply let their perception detect that instead of rattling off the trap details, you'll end up with a much better feel. So a pit trap might be distinguished by the squares on either sides of it showing signs of someone trying to catch hold as they fall in, or might be suspiciously absent of dust.
The key is to draw the player's attention to the trap and make them muck around with it to find out what it is. You don't need to say "there's a trap there". You just need to point out some distinguishing features.
The key is to draw the player's attention to the trap and make them muck around with it to find out what it is. You don't need to say "there's a trap there". You just need to point out some distinguishing features.
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
I ran this and we had great fun with it. 4E is a nerf, but overall I prefer the way something like this plays in 4E. (For all that they will tell you about walking through 10 feet of snow barefoot in the good old days, 10-14 level 1E charecters that go through ToH would have done so using oodles of high level magic, henchmen, and other resources, don't believe grandpa's hype).
Now, the OP confused me, as there are several challenges that cannot be found or bypassed with perception, including traps that say they cannot be found with perception! The chappel is mentioned. As per the module text, no trap in there can be found with perception, and the only thing that can you want them to find.
I don't really know what is happening at the table. I would certainly limit passive perception, and maybe use it just to give hints, to avoid searching every nook and cranny. Unless they are really stuck, I would never allow for a perception check to do something if it is not explicit in the adventure.
It gets harder (the first is actually just a warm up). Just remember: challenge the player. If they live up to the challenge, fine. If not, even better.
Now, the OP confused me, as there are several challenges that cannot be found or bypassed with perception, including traps that say they cannot be found with perception! The chappel is mentioned. As per the module text, no trap in there can be found with perception, and the only thing that can you want them to find.
I don't really know what is happening at the table. I would certainly limit passive perception, and maybe use it just to give hints, to avoid searching every nook and cranny. Unless they are really stuck, I would never allow for a perception check to do something if it is not explicit in the adventure.
It gets harder (the first is actually just a warm up). Just remember: challenge the player. If they live up to the challenge, fine. If not, even better.
TerraDave very accurately hit the highlights.
I ran the "original" Tomb of Horrors for 14th level 4e characters. Deaths flying left and right.
By the spirit of the original game, the point is two-fold:
1) Raise the stakes through the roof. Play wrong, miss a roll, you die.
2) Challnege the PLAYERS not the characters.
So first off, the nature of each encounter, to the best of it's ability should be FILLED with save or die attacks, effects, and consequences.
Then, as you build each encounter with your players in mind, be sure that you are challenging them to PLAY well and ROLL well. Each encounter should push the limits of their abilities, and require them to combine effects, abilities, daily powers, etc. to give them the best chance of survival. Perception can help, but that's just one of many, many tests they should face in EACH encounter. Most of the encounters we ran were run as a SKILL CHALLENGE using the 4e guidelines. With each challenge, failure would result in a someone's death (or more, based upon the circumstances).
I ran the "original" Tomb of Horrors for 14th level 4e characters. Deaths flying left and right.
By the spirit of the original game, the point is two-fold:
1) Raise the stakes through the roof. Play wrong, miss a roll, you die.
2) Challnege the PLAYERS not the characters.
So first off, the nature of each encounter, to the best of it's ability should be FILLED with save or die attacks, effects, and consequences.
Then, as you build each encounter with your players in mind, be sure that you are challenging them to PLAY well and ROLL well. Each encounter should push the limits of their abilities, and require them to combine effects, abilities, daily powers, etc. to give them the best chance of survival. Perception can help, but that's just one of many, many tests they should face in EACH encounter. Most of the encounters we ran were run as a SKILL CHALLENGE using the 4e guidelines. With each challenge, failure would result in a someone's death (or more, based upon the circumstances).
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Allow them to notice traps, but not as traps...
Use different checks than perception to actually notice what a trap does...
So it would work out as:
-> check passive perception
-> roll arcana, history, religion, dungeoneering, thievery etc. to notice what a "terrain feature" could do
Use different checks than perception to actually notice what a trap does...
So it would work out as:
-> check passive perception
-> roll arcana, history, religion, dungeoneering, thievery etc. to notice what a "terrain feature" could do
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