Tomb of Horrors - your experiences?

[Abraxas]

actually a ft7/th8 in 1edADnD is equiv to an 11th lvl character. the formula was ...

highest lvl class + total of other classes/ # of classes. so ... 8 + 7/2= 11.5... which is 11

5/7/6 = 7 + (5+6)/3 = 10.66667 ... which is 10

but in 1edADnD pre UA... you couldn't be a Ranger/MU... nor a Ranger/Dr... since rangers already got those spells later... Ranger/Cl was the only possible...nor could you be Ranger/Ft...ever. not even dual classing.

If you agree with that formula . . .

Every pregenerated character after # 11 is less than 10th level.

I made a mistake with the Ftr/Rng/M-U, it should have been Clr/Rng/M-U and this is right out of the pregenerated character section, apparently tournament modules didn't follow the multiclassing rules.

 

[Melan]

Tuzenbach: you are absolutely right. Those who attempt to solve the final encounter with brute force are making the same mistake those who do so at the beginning - and they, therefore, get killed.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Tuzenbach:
If the characters are encouraged to think that everything is a trap, and that touching anything brings immediate, painful death, then why would they take the treasure at all?

In fact - why would you continue through the dungeon once you worked that out?

See - the more I hear about this module, the more I think it sounds like any player who's NOT metagaming will just say "my character leaves this dungeon and goes back to normal dungeoneering life". And the only reason anyone continues on is because they have the idea that if they don't do this dungeon, the DM has nothing else.

 

[MerricB]

Tuzenbach:
If the characters are encouraged to think that everything is a trap, and that touching anything brings immediate, painful death, then why would they take the treasure at all?

Because in 1E, the best way to get XP was to get treasure. (Monster slaying was small potatoes in comparison). The Tomb of Horrors gave out a lot of treasure.

Cheers!

 

[ruleslawyer]

Totally OT, but two nitpicks, diaglo:

actually a ft7/th8 in 1edADnD is equiv to an 11th lvl character. the formula was ...

highest lvl class + total of other classes/ # of classes. so ... 8 + 7/2= 11.5... which is 11

5/7/6 = 7 + (5+6)/3 = 10.66667 ... which is 10

Actually, the 3e Conversion Guide states that level for multiclassed characters is equal to your highest 1e/2e class level + 1/3 the sum of your other class levels. So a Ftr7/Rog8 ("thief") would be 8 +7/3 = 10th level. A 5/7/6 character would be 7 + 1/3 (5+6) = 7+3.66667 = 10.66667, round down to 10, as you said.

but in 1edADnD pre UA... you couldn't be a Ranger/MU... nor a Ranger/Dr... since rangers already got those spells later... Ranger/Cl was the only possible...nor could you be Ranger/Ft...ever. not even dual classing.

I don't remember dual-classing blocking ranger/fighter; are you sure?

 

[Orius]

I believe "taking on Acererak" to be a silly notion entirely. IF (notice, I used a BIG if) the characters make it all the way to the skull chamber they will have learned something about the Tomb Of Horrors: *most* things in the dungeon will kill you IF you touch them.

If a party gets to the end and finds the skull in the chamber they (if intelligent) should be able to deduce that this skull (and not the false Acererak which they "defeated" earlier) is, indeed, the TRUE Acererak, and NOT part of the treasure. The solution is to take the treasure and split. Hopefully, the construction of the Tomb will have educated the players as to this best course of action by this time. If they touch the skull, they deserve the death they'll receive.

You make a good point, although in some ways, the module could be accused of baiting the players into messing Acererak in the first place. Sure, you could ignore the demilich skull if you really want to, but as Merric points out, treasure was part of XP awards back in the old days, and Acererak is loaded down with 130,000 gp worth of gems. So the first impulse of the characters will be to grab anything that looks really valuable, and that includes Acererak.

 

[The Serge]

I've never played this module, although I've read it a few times (while I enjoy reading modules, I rarely ever play them). As someone who has been playing since 1ed, I am convinced that this game, while potentially fun as a stand alone "adventure" unrelated to an existing campaign, is a gross example of a ridiculously overpowering, overkilling dungeon. Even within the mechanical framework of 1ed, there were too many elements that relied on luck (i.e., pick this or that or die) with no real clues or guidance to reflect the correct options. While this is the way things sometimes work in real life, the fact that this is a game should mitigate any total adherence to such a perspective.

That said, I can't deny that Tome of Horrors is certainly one of the seminal games from any edition. I think it's a must read for any serious DM for tips on how to bring dread to your gamers, how to evoke mystery, and what not to do (essentially, stripping PCs of any control).

I also have Return to the Tome of Horrors. Significantly better in terms of game mechanics, balance, and plot (there's actually a point behind all of the events in the Tome), it's still a tough cookie to conquer.

 

[Orius]

Tuzenbach:
If the characters are encouraged to think that everything is a trap, and that touching anything brings immediate, painful death, then why would they take the treasure at all?

In fact - why would you continue through the dungeon once you worked that out?

See - the more I hear about this module, the more I think it sounds like any player who's NOT metagaming will just say "my character leaves this dungeon and goes back to normal dungeoneering life". And the only reason anyone continues on is because they have the idea that if they don't do this dungeon, the DM has nothing else.

The entire dungeon is in some ways an excercise in metagaming and outright blocking any use of PC abilities. It seems to take into account the normal assumptions made by players and to screw them over as much as possible for making those assumptions in the first place. Thus Acererak is studded with lots of shiny, valuable gems, and the first impulse of players with be to grab the skull and therefore get lots of XPs. Of course by doing so, a good chunk of the party will likely be wiped out. Though this could be defended by saying that it's not really good for players to get into a habitual routine, and this modules seems to do everything it can to disrupt that routine.
Blocking PC abilities is worse, IMO. If PCs go astral or ethereal in the dungeon (which I assume was a sort of standard practice), then they get attacked by demons. Many of the death traps offer no saving throw, presumably because of the nature of pre-3e saves where high level characters consistantly made their saves most of the time. And many of those traps are triggered either through minor mistakes, or by once again baiting PCs into taking fairly routine courses of action.
My opinion is that Gygax went through a kill-off-all-the-PCs phase when he wrote this. I went through something similar at one point, but it was before I started playing D&D and I was still playing Hero Quest. It got to the point where the characters had become so powerful that they easily overcame all the challenges they faced, and so I created deathtraps with the purpose of wiping them out. The Tomb of Horrors to me comes off as something very similar. Perhaps it is not unusual for an inexperienced DM to go through this phase I think.
Also I think the module shows how much the game has changed over the years. As Saeviomagy points out, if all treasure seems ike a trap, then who would want to take it? That's really a line of thought that goes with more recent examples of D&D, since treasure by itself is no longer worth XP. But back in the day, that treasure would give levels, and so the first impulse would be to grab it.

 

[daoloth]

I'm running a game with some brand new players. 3 of them have never played before, one has only been playing for about 3 months when we started. They are up to level 5 now and I plan to introduce Return to the Tomb of Horrors when they are at the appropriate level to see if they will enter. Based on what some of you have said, I'm interested to see how they do since none of them have ever heard of the module.

 

[Tiew]

I heard a legend (on these boards actually) that Gygax created the module to weed out people who had high level characters they'd created by "cheating." The legend went on to say that he thought people who could actually play their characters up to high levels would have the smarts and experience to survive.

This story was brought up to illustrate how people used to feel differently about creating characters at higher levels rather than working up from 1st. I thought it was kind of cool in a wierd sort of way, if Tomb of Horrors isn't beatable by fair very smart play though it isn't as cool of a story anymore. :-(

Tiew