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Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords - Things to watch out for?

A player in my campaign is looking to play a class from the Bo9S. I have seen a few threads around the place with people complaining that it's broken, etc., At this point I'm happy to give it a go and see how it goes in my game. Is there anything in particular that I should watch out for though? Specifics would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Olaf the Stout
 

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Warblade :p

But seriously...

All the maneuveurs (sp?) that cause crazy things to happen- like summoning distracting elementals, shooting fire from your palm, turning to stone, etc. are listed as supernatural abilities- meaning they don't allow spell resistance. I think that's a terrible idea, and would be one of the first things I'd fix (either by just saying SR applies, or making them into spell-like abilities).

There's also a special ability the warblade has that lets him attune any of his feats to match a new weapon early in the day. So a Fighter spends years training with his greataxe to gain weapon focus (greataxe), while the warblade picks up a greataxe one monring says "this looks fun" and changes his feat from weapon focus (longsword) to weapon focus (greataxe). This can be used on any feat improved critical, great weapon focus, etc. by just spending a few hours concentrating :eek:

I just started playing a game with a swordsage in our party, and thus far- it seems fairly balanced. I would caution that if there's a Fighter, or Paladin, or other combat type character in the party, it might be easy for them to feel outdone/upshowed fast with a warblade or crusader. They're significantly more powerful, and more flashy than those characters. Also, there's no limit to the amount of times they can use their maneveurs per day (just per encounter), so when your wizard/cleric are out of spells- recognize the Bo9S classes can keep going indefinetly.

And I think warblade needs toned down hit dice, less skill points, and some of their abilities reigned in- but that's just my personal opinion. ;)

Hope this helps some.

Vorp
 

I've played with and DM'd PCs from 3rd to 16th level using this system alongside Core classes.

It's an excellent book, one of the best balanced (at all levels) of the new systems from WotC, while also bringing a lot of fun to the table.

Things that are wrong:
- Swooping Dragon Strike's DC should be the usual maneuver DC (10 + level + Str, in this case).
- White Raven Tactics should probably only grant a single attack or a Move action.
- War Master's Charge may be overpowered in theory, but it's actually really hard to pull off anything broken with it.

I may be forgetting one or two... but overall, they're great. :)

Cheers, -- N
 

Vorput said:
Warblade :p

But seriously...

All the maneuveurs (sp?) that cause crazy things to happen- like summoning distracting elementals, shooting fire from your palm, turning to stone, etc. are listed as supernatural abilities- meaning they don't allow spell resistance. I think that's a terrible idea, and would be one of the first things I'd fix (either by just saying SR applies, or making them into spell-like abilities).

I haven't found any of these to be unablancing, as long as you don't mind the wuxia feel these don't seem to be too bad.


Vorput said:
There's also a special ability the warblade has that lets him attune any of his feats to match a new weapon early in the day. So a Fighter spends years training with his greataxe to gain weapon focus (greataxe), while the warblade picks up a greataxe one monring says "this looks fun" and changes his feat from weapon focus (longsword) to weapon focus (greataxe). This can be used on any feat improved critical, great weapon focus, etc. by just spending a few hours concentrating :eek:

I tend to err on the side of being permisive - so instead of taking this ability away from the warblade - just give it to the fighter (of course the fighter unlike the warblade is not feat starved, and can really use this ability to the max).

The big ability that seems truly problematic is white raven tactics (let yourself or an ally go again in the same round) just have it grant an extra move action or somesuch.

Swooping Dragon Strike (asuming you get that high level) should have a save for the stun effect (something like 10 +STR +IL).

Otherwise the book integrates quite well.

[Edit: beaten to the punch on both pieces of advise, but it should say something that 2 people said almost identical things about identical manuevers]
 
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Vorput said:
All the maneuveurs (sp?) that cause crazy things to happen- like summoning distracting elementals, shooting fire from your palm, turning to stone, etc. are listed as supernatural abilities- meaning they don't allow spell resistance. I think that's a terrible idea, and would be one of the first things I'd fix (either by just saying SR applies, or making them into spell-like abilities).

1. There is no maneuver that petrifies things.
2. Summoning a creature to flank isn't subject to SR under any circumstances, even if it's a spell or SLA.
3. The damaging SU maneuvers are already signifigantly weaker than equal-level divine spells (let alone arcane ones) and do not scale at all.

There's also a special ability the warblade has that lets him attune any of his feats to match a new weapon early in the day. So a Fighter spends years training with his greataxe to gain weapon focus (greataxe), while the warblade picks up a greataxe one monring says "this looks fun" and changes his feat from weapon focus (longsword) to weapon focus (greataxe). This can be used on any feat improved critical, great weapon focus, etc. by just spending a few hours concentrating :eek:

Considering the Warblade isn't likely to have any weapon-specific feats except perhaps Exotic Weapon Proficiency, this rule doesn't really strike me as "something to watch out for". Only fighters really have feats to waste on Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and so on.

And I think warblade needs toned down hit dice, less skill points, and some of their abilities reigned in- but that's just my personal opinion. ;)

Warblade is the weakest base class of the three. They're very Multiple Attribute Dependant (Str for damage and to-hit, Dex for AC since they can't wear heavy armor, Con for HP, and Int for class features), have no ranged abilities whatsoever (including lacking any ranged weapon proficiencies), and have the worst combined recovery method/maneuvers readied (Crusaders have fewer maneuvers readied but by far the best recovery, and Swordsages have twice as many maneuvers readied with a just-slightly-worse recovery). I don't see the point in nerfing their skill points - Wizards hasn't released a class with 2 skill points per level in years, and Warblades only get 4. Their hit dice is the same as a barbarian's, which makes sense since they fill the same niche as a barbarian (less damage and more maneuverability, but still the same niche overall). And what abilities need reigned in? All of their class features are either flavor (weapon focus retraining) or int-dependant.
 

A few important things to note.

1) Longer battles are most fair when using the Tome of Battle in play. A martial adept is most effective, like a psionic character, when he or she can lay into the enemy with their best attacks for 1-4 rounds in a row (or just 1-2 rounds). If they have to stick around longer than that to fight, they'll have to use their less-effective maneuvers or start wasting turns on refreshing maneuvers (unless they're a Crusader, in which case they just gotta start the random cycle of maneuver-granting over again, given their wierd maneuver use and recovery mechanics). Throw more mooks at the party, or just tougher (not harder-hitting, but more survivable) enemies, to draw out the battles a bit longer.

So in a longer battle, core characters will be able to show their strengths better, rather than being outdone by the martial adept who used up his best attacks in the first 1-2 rounds (just like a psionic manifester who blows power points on a fully-augmented blasting power in the first few rounds and then has to be miserly to avoid running out of juice).

Similarly, martial adepts are best at melee combat, especially with just one or two enemies at a time. So wizards and druids and such can show their awesomeness at blowing up lots of stuff at once if you throw more mooks into the battle. Using ranged combatants also helps prevent martial adepts from outshining other folks; so as long as you don't skew the battles toward them by using all-melee fights, with just a few enemies at a time (which is just the normal tendency for some DMs), you shouldn't have problems with martial adepts. Each class has its strengths, and a martial adept's is 'melee dueling'.


2) Part of the balancing factor, I think, for Bo9S classes is that they're all kind of dependant on multiple ability scores. Crusaders usually need good Constitution and Charisma, but they also need Strength for offense. Swordsages need everything except Charisma, though they have only a minor need for Intelligence (and Strength, if using the Shadow Blade feat alongside Weapon Finesse). Warblades need Strength and Dexterity, and also at least reasonably good Constitution, along with Intelligence if they want to make the most of their class features.


3) Each martial adept class has its own advantages, and it's debatable which of them is strongest. However I'm generally inclined to believe that Swordsages are the most balanced when compared to core classes; a bit stronger from their versatility compared to Fighters, but then, Fighters are the weakest of the core warrior-types (usually; and this is less true when you use a lot of splatbooks that give nice feats to Fighters).

Crusaders are probably the strongest, but they also have tricky, kind of complicated mechanics, so if a player can handle one well, they deserve to be reasonably strong given the difficulty of running them. Mostly Crusaders are just tough, though, so it's not like they're offensive powerhouses.

Warblades may be the strongest or the weakest, people debate it all the time it seems. They're advantage compared to Fighters is lessened by the fact that they need more class levels before they can take any Fighter-specific feat.


4) A few maneuvers should be houseruled or just banned for simplicity. These include Swooping Dragon Strike, Warmaster's Charge, White Raven Tactics, and I think one of the high-level White Raven maneuvers besides those (I forget the name). Just generally watch out for White Raven maneuvers/stances, they're not all bad but many of them are very potent/efficient compared to other maneuvers/stances. You may also want to limit the maneuver Moment of Perfect Mind, either giving it a penalty or a drawback.

And, probably ban Thri-Kreen from the game when you use Bo9S (or just rule that Thri-Kreen can't use martial maneuvers and stances, and can't gain levels in martial adept classes). They just have too many racial advantages for using some of the nastier stuff, that would otherwise be fine for other PCs to use.


5) Watch out for a few of the feats in Bo9S, a few of them may be overpowered (or it may just be when using the aforementioned broken maneuvers that they become overpowered, I dunno). Also, probably ban the set of magic items that boost particular disciplines (like the Crown of the White Raven, or whatever it was called).

6) Disallow items that directly grant more than a +5 on skill checks, probably. Or just ban items that grant an improvement to Concentration skill checks. As long as you ban or houserule Swooping Dragon Strike, then Jump bonuses shouldn't be too powerful, so it may be reasonable to just ban +Concentration items.


7) One thing that people tend to have a fit over is a Warblade who uses Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Steel Heart Surge, and some +Concentration items. They think the Warblade is immune to saving-throw-related effects as a result, which is only of limited truthfulness. The +Concentration items are the main problem, though the Warblade is still tough without them; but there is a weakness to this.

They can only use each of the maneuvers once between refreshing (each maneuver can only be readied once at any given time; the slots aren't quite like spell slots, so you can't ready more than one copy of a maneuver), and Warblades have a rather small allotment of 'maneuvers readied' slots. So a Warblade who readies this, around 5th-level or so (which is around the first time that they can have all three), will also have hardly anything else readied, so he'll almost always be like a Fighter with fewer feats, later access to Weapon Specialization and its ilk, and just a tiny bit more HP.

Just because he'll want to keep these defensive maneuvers ready on the off-chance he needs them, which will usually mean consciously choosing to sacrifice most of his cool and useful fighting ability for the sake of a little bit of 'oh @&*#^$ save me!' capacity (that may or may not succeed, but usually will).

They'll be able to probably save themselves from one Will save or Reflex save effect, or one other nasty status effect, but then they'll be nothing but said Fighter with fewer feats afterward, until they refresh maneuvers. To refresh their maneuvers they'll have to be in melee, and avoid using any maneuvers that round, so they'll be vulnerable to saving-throw effects and status effects that round. They also can't change their Stance on the round they refresh maneuvers (nor on any of the rounds in which they use one of those save-my-butt maneuvers, since they all use the character's only Swift or Immediate action for the round).

So, any time the Warblade shakes off a nasty magical effect that the opponent believes should have taken him out of the battle or hurt him a lot more than it did, the opponent should be aware that NOW is the time to really let loose with the big save-or-die or save-or-become-useless guns. Never throw a single Will save effect against a Warblade; if you're going to bother, throw 2 of them in the same round, or 1 each round for 2 to 3 rounds in a row. That will overcome his ability to save his bacon once per 2 rounds (at best; sometimes he may wait even longer before refreshing maneuvers).
 

Zurai said:
1. There is no maneuver that petrifies things.
2. Summoning a creature to flank isn't subject to SR under any circumstances, even if it's a spell or SLA.
3. The damaging SU maneuvers are already signifigantly weaker than equal-level divine spells (let alone arcane ones) and do not scale at all..

I meant the ability that turns YOU to stone, or gives you damage reduction- or whaetever it does. And I disagree- the 9th level ability to deal 100 points of damage to EVERYTHING in a 60 foot RADIUS [which also deals automatic massive damage save upon being hit with it]! Show me a comparable wizard spell! The 3rd level DW wind which shoots a ball of fire that does 5d6 damage- it's equal to the damage of a fireball a wizard would get at that level, with the limit of it having a reduced range and a single target- its comparable to the orb spells (which granted don't allow SR, which is something most people have a problem with). But to each his own, I don't have the book in front of me or believe I could find more.

Zurai said:
Considering the Warblade isn't likely to have any weapon-specific feats except perhaps Exotic Weapon Proficiency, this rule doesn't really strike me as "something to watch out for". Only fighters really have feats to waste on Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and so on.

Principle of the thing- the fighter's ability to take those feats is what sets them apart, I don't need the warblade muscling in on their territory by being able to do in an hour what it takes the fighter years to learn :p Don't warblades get bonus feats too?

I may agree with Mort that the solution isn't to hurt the warblade, but rather to help the fighter- but that's another thread/edition.

Zurai said:
Warblade is the weakest base class of the three. They're very Multiple Attribute Dependant (Str for damage and to-hit, Dex for AC since they can't wear heavy armor, Con for HP, and Int for class features), have no ranged abilities whatsoever (including lacking any ranged weapon proficiencies), and have the worst combined recovery method/maneuvers readied (Crusaders have fewer maneuvers readied but by far the best recovery, and Swordsages have twice as many maneuvers readied with a just-slightly-worse recovery). I don't see the point in nerfing their skill points - Wizards hasn't released a class with 2 skill points per level in years, and Warblades only get 4. Their hit dice is the same as a barbarian's, which makes sense since they fill the same niche as a barbarian (less damage and more maneuverability, but still the same niche overall). And what abilities need reigned in? All of their class features are either flavor (weapon focus retraining) or int-dependant

Str like every fighter, dex like a ranger/barbarian, con isn't nearly as important since they have a d12 hit die! Their class features provide a nice bonus if they have a good int, but they're hardly neccesary to the character build. Correct me if I'm wrong (and i very well could be on this), but don't warblades just need to spend a swift action to recover maneuvers used? If you're setting out to make them comparable to fighter (Accepting fighter as a balanced class)- then they should have equal skill points. If you'll admit warblade is a better class than fighter (and that may be a good thing, perhaps fighters are the problem), then it's not so much of an issue. I don't have the book with me so I can't speak definetly on their class features.


Anyway, these are just my own opinions that the DM may want to watch out for. Perhaps he'll see no problem with them in play. I just like to compare new base classes back to the core classes, and judge them by those.

Vorp
 
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Vorput said:
I meant the ability that turns YOU to stone, or gives you damage reduction- or whaetever it does.
I've seen a lot of people hate on this book without actually knowing or trying the material within it, so I'm (perhaps overly) sensitive to such things. If you actually do know the material well, forgive my insult. If you're not actually knowledgeable regarding the material, do you really think it's helpful to give strong, specific opinions to newcomers?

Vorput said:
And I disagree- the 9th level ability to deal 100 points of damage to EVERYTHING in a 60 foot RADIUS! Show me a comparable wizard spell!
At 20th level, empowered horrid wilting (yeah, buy a rod) average damage is 105.

Targeting, saving throw DC, and damage type of this spell will be better than the maneuver. (Seriously -- look how many things resist or are immune to fire damage by CR 17. Desert Wind is considered to be a weak school by many people who use the system.)

Like folks have said after this post, direct damage is one of the worst uses for magic at high levels (over 12 or so). Empowered fireball is nice at 10th level; but mass suggestion or teleport or gate or dominate monster or wail of the banshee or astral projection? Those are spells that can change the nature of an encounter, end it instantly, or avoid it entirely.

Cheers, -- N

EDIT: Fixed math, niced snark.
 
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Hmm.. Things to look out for.

1) People who knee-jerk the Warblade, and declare him overpowered. Like Zurai said, it's likely the weakest of the three classes. Honestly, they're fairly powerful up until iterative attacks, and especially at level 5. They get their level 3 maneuvers then, and the other full-BAB classes haven't acquired their 2nd attack yet. They're pretty ok most of the rest of the time.

seriously though..

2) Iron Heart Surge - Read through the maneuver, and decide what effects it can/can't end beforehand... It's really poorly worded.

3) White Raven Tactics - If no one tries to abuse this, it's alot of fun. People are saying to limit it to move actions or something, but as far as I'm concerned it's ok as long as a) can't use it on self, and b) can only benefit from the affects of it once/round.

4) Agreed on Swooping Dragon Strike. Just use the same Save mechanism as all the rest.

5) Skill boosting items - Be careful. The aforementioned Swooping Dragon Strike (unmodified) sets a stun DC based on the result of a jump check. Not really a huge deal, but it scares people and is kinda silly. Also, several Diamond Mind maneuvers work based on a concentration check. There are concentration to save maneuvers and concentration check for damage maneuvers. Might be a good idea to keep a close eye on the availability of skill boosting items for either of those skills. There's also a maneuver that uses ...sense motive... (i think) but it's not anything I've ever heard anyone actually take, so not likely good enough to worry about. (it looks fun though)

Also.. Bo9S is lots of fun. Enjoy playing with fighty classes w/options.
 

Nifft said:
at 17th level, empowered cone of cold average damage is 146.25.

At 20th level, empowered horrid wilting (yeah, buy a rod) average damage is 195.

I... have no idea where these numbers are coming from. By my math they should be 78.75 ([15 * 3.5] * 1.5) and 105 ([20 * 3.5] * 1.5), respectively.

I agree with your assessment of the Desert Wind school, though. That particular maneuver is so unwieldy as to be effectively useless - it bursts around you, not at range, and with that huge area is virtually certain to blow away someone you like. There's a reason that Sculpt Spell is one of the best metamagic feats going for a blaster, after all. And it's a full-round action to use, too. You can't even move up to the enemy and use it, you just have to hope everyone's conveniently situated. Feh. It's worse than a maximized fireball, much less a meteor swarm.
 
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