Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords - Things to watch out for?

[defendi]

We have one in our current Expedition to Castle Ravenloft game. He's 9th level now. I think that everyone (including the guy playing him) feels that every manuever and stance he gets is at least twice as powerful as the feats a fighter gets (this is taking into account the fact that manuevers can only be used once per combat). They balance it out by giving him better HP too.

But, seriously. I thought this was a great game to try him out on but he just leaves everyone in the party feeling inferior. Luckily, the group is more into roleplaying so it hasn't hurt us. On his birthday we rewarded him with a twinky every time he did something completely, well, twinky.

 

[Arkhandus]

defendi: part of your group's problem may be that you're not using Complete Warrior and Player's Handbook II, perhaps. I dunno if you are or not, but the core Fighter is pretty weak if you don't use any supplements.

Also: Keep in mind that Warblades only get about half as many feats as Fighters (or was it more like 3/5ths?). Also, note that the Warblade can't usually attack more than once per round with a maneuver; a Fighter can usually get off 2 or 3 attacks in the same time, either with a bow + Rapid Shot or Manyshot, or just using iterative melee attacks. It's probably more fair at 11th-level+ where the Fighter is making 3 attacks for every 1 offensive maneuver of the Warblade's. Power Attack matters some too, which a Warblade can't apply to his maneuvers.

 

[defendi]

Thanks for pointing that out. It MIGHT just be a bad level for balance. WOW but he does a lot of damage with those single attacks, though.

 

[Destil]

Also, note that the Warblade can't usually attack more than once per round with a maneuver; a Fighter can usually get off 2 or 3 attacks in the same time...

Don't forget no extra attacks from haste or weapons of speed, too.

 

[Piratecat]

Your familiarity with the material is ... less than compelling.

Your sarcastic snarkiness is ... less than useful.

Skip the insults and stick to the discussion, eh?

 

[WhatGravitas]

I agree with your assessment of the Desert Wind school, though. That particular maneuver is so unwieldy as to be effectively useless - it bursts around you, not at range, and with that huge area is virtually certain to blow away someone you like.

Not only that, at that level that maneuver is in competition with Wail of the Banshee, Weird and Wish. And don't forget, that a well-placed Mass Heal can heal much more than the swordsage did, while not helping his friend, which he also fried with his maneuver.

 

[Vorput]

We have one in our current Expedition to Castle Ravenloft game. He's 9th level now. I think that everyone (including the guy playing him) feels that every manuever and stance he gets is at least twice as powerful as the feats a fighter gets (this is taking into account the fact that manuevers can only be used once per combat). They balance it out by giving him better HP too.

But, seriously. I thought this was a great game to try him out on but he just leaves everyone in the party feeling inferior. Luckily, the group is more into roleplaying so it hasn't hurt us. On his birthday we rewarded him with a twinky every time he did something completely, well, twinky.

And that's by far my biggest fear- I'd only ban this book if anyone else was playing a fighter/paladin/ranger etc. because I can't see how it wouldn't upshow them. I'd merely tweak the book otherwise.

I'm not out for balance where every class is the same- but I do think that if a player chooses to play a fighter, they should probably be the best in the party at toe to toe fighting!

 

[Vorput]

Your familiarity with the material is ... less than compelling.

at 17th level, empowered cone of cold average damage is 146.25.

At 20th level, empowered horrid wilting (yeah, buy a rod) average damage is 195.

Areas, saving throw DCs, and damage types of both of these spells is better than the maneuver. (Seriously -- look how many things resist or are immune to fire damage by CR 17. Desert Wind is considered to be a weak school by many people who use the system.)

Cheers, -- N

Sorry Nifft, I never bothered to buy the book- just have used friend's copies, and so I don't have it in front of me right now.

And I'm with Kelleris, those numbers seem way off.

Those who've commented that the burst is un-wieldy make a good point, but the ability to decimate an entire invading army with a single strike against the leader at the middle (even if that army is actually composed of relativly high level warriors) still seems rather un-balanced to me. The full round action is a good point though.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Your familiarity with the material is ... less than compelling.

at 17th level, empowered cone of cold average damage is 146.25.

At 20th level, empowered horrid wilting (yeah, buy a rod) average damage is 195.

Erm - empowered Cone of Cold only does 78.75 damage (half on a save) in a 60ft cone (which is only quarter of a 60ft radius circle). Even maximised it is only 90 damage.

How do you get 146.25?

 

[Nifft]

Erm - empowered Cone of Cold only does 78.75 damage (half on a save) in a 60ft cone (which is only quarter of a 60ft radius circle). Even maximised it is only 90 damage.

How do you get 146.25?

Bad late-night math -- I'll go edit the post. :\

Thanks! -- N