Tome of Battle - Book of 9 Swords

[GeorgeFields]

I've never looked through or discussed this book.

Is it a "combat on steroids" book? That's what it sounds like.

 

[Bad Paper]

Multiclassing can be a problem, as picking up a level of martial adept later is more beneficial as one earlier.

Yes! Bo9S's multiclassing breaks the inherently modular approach that makes 3rd-edition ... 3rd edition. A fighter 5/rogue 5 is basically the same no matter when you took which level. But a fighter 5/swordsage 5 will have a different set of maneuvers based on the initiator level that he had when he took them. It's really strange. And then you have to track which IL is which for something like a swordsage 5 / warblade 5. argh! It can be needlessly confusing.

 

[Zelc]

Is it a "combat on steroids" book? That's what it sounds like.

No, it's a "fighter characters are now actually relevant and much funner to play in higher level games" book.

 

[Stalker0]

FWIW:

We've used the ToB:Bo9S for about a year now. Mostly, it's fine. ...And it's great fun!

That said:Multiclassing can be a problem, as picking up a level of martial adept later is

The way to fix that is to allow a martial adept/non adept to continue to upgrade manuevers just like he was still taking martial adept levels.

For example, a swordsage 4 can upgrade one lower level manuever into a higher one. A swordsage 2/fighter 2 should be allowed to do the same.

 

[Stalker0]

Yes! Bo9S's multiclassing breaks the inherently modular approach that makes 3rd-edition ... 3rd edition. A fighter 5/rogue 5 is basically the same no matter when you took which level.

Not exactly. Depending on which one you take first, you either gain +4 hitpoints or 24 more skillpoints. Personally, I know which one I would choose

 

[Nifft]

A fighter 5/rogue 5 is basically the same no matter when you took which level.

Skill ranks were always a problem. Taking Fighter 1 / Rogue 1 "lost" you 6 x 4 = 24 skill points (vs. Rogue 1 / Fighter 1), while taking Fighter 4 / Rogue 1 allowed you to immediately put eight ranks in one non-Fighter skill like Bluff (which some PrC might require), without you having to overpay for cross-class ranks.

So there's always been "state information"... but I agree that Bo9S does increase it.

Cheers, -- N

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The manuevers like Moment of Perfect Mind can be abused, if the player realizes he's only got to have 1 good stat: Con. I nerfed it to a straight +6 bonus.

I don't think it's that bad, really. In order to make con the "only good stat," you'd first need to acheive level 5, spend 3 maneuver known and readied choices on those three, and never get slapped with more than one saving throw in any single round, ever. They're all immediate actions, and you can't use two in a round, barring a stance you need to wait till level 15 for and isn't even that good. If you're a Warblade, you've basically sacrificed all your maneuvers readied just to safeguard your saving throws. If you were a Swordsage, you had 2 good saves already. If you're a Warblade, you're also going to have a hard time recovering your maneuvers, since you just lost your next round's swift action. Which is another important note: it's not bloody likely you can use that same save-beater two rounds in a row, even. You'd need items or multiclassing to do that. Also, if your game uses MIC, with all its swift and immediate action goodies, you're really, really hosing yourself.

 

[Nail]

I don't think it's that bad, really.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Let me try again:

"With manuevers that replace everything with Con - or a Con based skill - you only really need one stat. Moment of Perfect Mind is one such manuever. Insightful Strike is another. etc."

 

[blargney the second]

Nail, I know you really don't like the Moment Of X Y counters. Personally, I haven't had any problems with them, mostly because the opportunity costs for employing them are remarkably high.

 

[Zelc]

Skill ranks were always a problem. Taking Fighter 1 / Rogue 1 "lost" you 6 x 4 = 24 skill points (vs. Rogue 1 / Fighter 1), while taking Fighter 4 / Rogue 1 allowed you to immediately put eight ranks in one non-Fighter skill like Bluff (which some PrC might require), without you having to overpay for cross-class ranks.

So there's always been "state information"... but I agree that Bo9S does increase it.

Cheers, -- N

Not only that, but feats that have prerequisites based on obtaining a certain level also creates state information. For instance, if you want to take Weapon Finesse and 3 feats with Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite at level 3 using 2 levels of Fighter and 1 level of Rogue, you can't take the Rogue level first.