Tome of Battle classes without the extras

[Nightfall]

I have to agree. It's pretty much like playing a cleric or a wizard without spellcasting.

Which is just a fancy way of saying "Are you nuts?!"

 

[Plane Sailing]

Crusader/Warblade

I was looking over these two classes today and with some adjustments they would make decent base classes without maneuvers/stance rules.

What do you think?

A few of the powers would have to be adjusted somewhat…………like the 20th level power of Warblade.

I don't know about the crusader, but I think the warblade would be a fine and fun Int-based fighter with just the class abilities that he has.

Full BAB,
Good Fort save,
Great HD (d12),
4 skill points
excellent skill list including both tumble and diplomacy
uncanny dodge
Int bonus to reflex saves
at 3rd add Int bonus to rolls to confirm crits
at 7th add Int as damage bonus to attacks on flat-footed or flanked opponents
at 11th add Int bonus on all checks to resist bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip attempt
at 15th add Int bonus to attack and damage on all AoO

Not to mention 4 bonus feats over and above the standard feat per 3 levels.

I'd play a character like this over a standard fighter in a shot. This would be a better swashbuckler class for me than any I've yet seen published

Cheers

 

[gribble]

I don't know about the crusader, but I think the warblade would be a fine and fun Int-based fighter with just the class abilities that he has.

Agreed. The one slight change I'd make would be to change his list of bonus feats to be the same as the fighters, and then I think you'd end up with a better int-based fighter than the fighter...

Hmmm... is it just me, or did that last sentence use the word fighter way too many times...

 

[BryonD]

nevermind, I actually really don't want to go there again right now.

 

[BryonD]

I'd play a character like this over a standard fighter in a shot. This would be a better swashbuckler class for me than any I've yet seen published

Yep. If I recall correctly, without counting manuevers and stances, the WB gets some special ability for every single bonus feat the fighter gets. Obviously that becomes more restricted in options, but if the abilities you get are what you want, then that isn't really a restriction.

I'd rather play a balanced class WITH the manuevers and stances however. To me they are a really cool approach. This is the only product I've seen with major issues that I still am happy I bought the book and have felt motivated to put time and effort into seriously fixing.

 

[Dax Doomslayer]

ByronD - What did you do to make these classes 'balanced' just out of curiousity? I really like this look and feel of this book also and was just kind of curious what people's thoughts were. From where I sit really the only one that looks like it may top out power wise is the War Blade and if you just give them a d10 and get rid of the refocus of maneuvers as a swift action I think you could pretty much be their. However, as I said I am curious as to other's take on it. Thanks.

 

[dagger]

I don't know about the crusader, but I think the warblade would be a fine and fun Int-based fighter with just the class abilities that he has.

Full BAB,
Good Fort save,
Great HD (d12),
4 skill points
excellent skill list including both tumble and diplomacy
uncanny dodge
Int bonus to reflex saves
at 3rd add Int bonus to rolls to confirm crits
at 7th add Int as damage bonus to attacks on flat-footed or flanked opponents
at 11th add Int bonus on all checks to resist bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip attempt
at 15th add Int bonus to attack and damage on all AoO

Not to mention 4 bonus feats over and above the standard feat per 3 levels.

I'd play a character like this over a standard fighter in a shot. This would be a better swashbuckler class for me than any I've yet seen published

Cheers

I personally think it would stand up when compared to a lot of the non spell casting warrior type base classes.

 

[Elemental]

Test it out in play as-is first with no preconceptions. If something seems overpowered, check the ability description more closely to be sure it was read right. Then houserule.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I still want to get the book for the maneuvers and stances. Throw away the broken base classes, give the fighter some more neat abilities to pick up with feats ... boom, you've got a better fighter without creating munchkined out classes to make the guy that played a fighter feel like an idiot for doing so.

--fje

 

[NilesB]

Without maneuvers a Warblade is like a Barbarian except:
Worse Weapon Proficiencies
Worse skill list
No fast movement
No Rage (no Greater Rage or Mighty Rage either)
No Trap Sense
No Damage Reduction
No Indomitable Will

Your fourth best attribute bonus to a few corner case rolls
4 bonus feats from a list that with the dross filtered out consists of Combat reflexes, Improved Initiative(which isn't even the best buy for a guy with Uncanny Dodge) and the save boosters.

I ain't impressed.