Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords: Proto-Review
- Thread starter JoeGKushner
- Start date
We're gonna run it as-is for now, so we'll see if a change is needed, but I'm gonna keep that one in mind.
gribble
Explorer
Graf said:
Oh, I wasn't glossing over that at all. I just disagree that by 20th level a warblade is going to be substantially worse than a fighter in raw attack/damage bonuses.
How many feats add to raw damage output as part of a full attack? weapon focus, weapon spec, the improved versions from the PHB 2, power attack (I'm probably missing some, but those are the key ones, right)? By 20th level a warblade can have all those feats, and in conjunction with something like the stance above, I'd argue he'd be at least as effective in raw attack/damage bonuses. Plus, the "make 2 full attacks" maneuver is a strike, meaning the character above gets +2 to hit and +6 to damage on all of those melee attacks (yes, thats right, all 6 attacks!). What feat does a fighter have that would make him equivalent to that?
Sure, a fighter would have more options in terms of trip, disarm, cleave, etc (but the warblade would have access to maneuvers to compensate). And in terms of raw, basic attacks I fail to see how an approprtiately built warblade wouldn't be at least as effective...
Dark Psion
First Post
I decided to pick this one up after looking at it and while I think the classes have some definite potiential, but once again, it's the editing and design of the book are where I have problems.
Problem One: The Flip Book Factor: Here I am trying to create a Swordsage, but I am constantly having to flip back and forth from this page to that one. The Swordsage table is on page 16, but to find out what level maneuvers you can use, you have to go to page 39. One of the Swordsage's abilities, Discipline Focus, is based off weapons favored by a chosen discipline, see chapter 4. But oops, the Art department did not include numbers on the chapter pages, so it is back to the index to find where chapter 4 starts, but don't bother. Why? Because the information you need is not in chapter 4, it is in Chapter 2 under Blade Meditation feat (pg 28) and in Chapter 3 under Maneuvers and Stances (pg 41).
Confused yet?
Problem Two: Complex NPCs: Let's say you need a 5th level Wizard. No problem! 4 zero level, 3 first level, 2 second level and 1 third level spells and while most of us can choose them from memory, you can use the spell list as well.
Now let's say you need a 5th level Swordsage. OK, you get 10 maneuvers, but without that vancian chart most spellcasters have, you are going to have to go back and figure out at what class level he had access to what maneuver level. So that means 7 first level, 2 second level and 1 third level, plus take into account that you can take lower level maneuvers and you can upgrade one at 4th. Now you can pick them, but remember that some maneuvers have prerequisites of other maneuvers from the same discipline and the same applies to most of the Swordsage feats.
And that is just a 5th level Swordsage, imagine a 10th level one. NPC design should not be this complex. If they are planing a web enhancement for this book, some prestated NPCs would be a good choice.
Problem Three: The Closed Book: It is called the Book of Nine Sword because there are nine disciplines, but what if I want more? We have a fire based discipline in the Desert Wind, but what about an Electrical or Cold based one? We have a Stealthy Ninja discipline in the Shadow Hand, but what about a Pirate/ Corsair, water based discipline?
Part of the fun of D&D is that you can shape and add to your world by creating new spells and monsters. But many of these recent books are trying to be everything in one book. I have yet to find anything on adapting or changing the disciplines nor is there rules on adding new maneuvers and stances to the disciplines.
If I was to use this book in D20 Rokugan for example, I would change Desert Wind into Fury of Osano-Wo by changing fire to lightning. The weapon groupings are a bit weird too, Diamond Mind has Rapier, Short Spear, Trident and Katana. That's several different cultures combined, what if I want to keep it in one culture? I was also surprised that this book did not include a section of how to use it in Eberron or Forgotten Realms as most books do.
So far both Tomes (Magic & Battle) do present some new and intriguing concepts, but they need to do a better job in how they present them.
Either that or put the "Advanced" back in front of the D&D.
Problem One: The Flip Book Factor: Here I am trying to create a Swordsage, but I am constantly having to flip back and forth from this page to that one. The Swordsage table is on page 16, but to find out what level maneuvers you can use, you have to go to page 39. One of the Swordsage's abilities, Discipline Focus, is based off weapons favored by a chosen discipline, see chapter 4. But oops, the Art department did not include numbers on the chapter pages, so it is back to the index to find where chapter 4 starts, but don't bother. Why? Because the information you need is not in chapter 4, it is in Chapter 2 under Blade Meditation feat (pg 28) and in Chapter 3 under Maneuvers and Stances (pg 41).
Confused yet?
Problem Two: Complex NPCs: Let's say you need a 5th level Wizard. No problem! 4 zero level, 3 first level, 2 second level and 1 third level spells and while most of us can choose them from memory, you can use the spell list as well.
Now let's say you need a 5th level Swordsage. OK, you get 10 maneuvers, but without that vancian chart most spellcasters have, you are going to have to go back and figure out at what class level he had access to what maneuver level. So that means 7 first level, 2 second level and 1 third level, plus take into account that you can take lower level maneuvers and you can upgrade one at 4th. Now you can pick them, but remember that some maneuvers have prerequisites of other maneuvers from the same discipline and the same applies to most of the Swordsage feats.
And that is just a 5th level Swordsage, imagine a 10th level one. NPC design should not be this complex. If they are planing a web enhancement for this book, some prestated NPCs would be a good choice.
Problem Three: The Closed Book: It is called the Book of Nine Sword because there are nine disciplines, but what if I want more? We have a fire based discipline in the Desert Wind, but what about an Electrical or Cold based one? We have a Stealthy Ninja discipline in the Shadow Hand, but what about a Pirate/ Corsair, water based discipline?
Part of the fun of D&D is that you can shape and add to your world by creating new spells and monsters. But many of these recent books are trying to be everything in one book. I have yet to find anything on adapting or changing the disciplines nor is there rules on adding new maneuvers and stances to the disciplines.
If I was to use this book in D20 Rokugan for example, I would change Desert Wind into Fury of Osano-Wo by changing fire to lightning. The weapon groupings are a bit weird too, Diamond Mind has Rapier, Short Spear, Trident and Katana. That's several different cultures combined, what if I want to keep it in one culture? I was also surprised that this book did not include a section of how to use it in Eberron or Forgotten Realms as most books do.
So far both Tomes (Magic & Battle) do present some new and intriguing concepts, but they need to do a better job in how they present them.
Either that or put the "Advanced" back in front of the D&D.
hamishspence
Hero
Lone-character play
I've been doing some DM-ing with a buddy: single character, wilderness crawling. He plays a Stone Dragon/Iron heart warblade. So far, at low levels, the warblade chews through creatures of the same CR and can just about handle single encounters with a creature of higher CR. I am tight-fisted with treasure, but let him buy magic items in town with the little loot he's got.
In a one-on-one, 5th level warblade vs 6th level swordsage (Crimson Mask, Desert Wind specialist from book) he chewed up and spat out his opponent.
He is fairly moderate strength and Dex, but VERY high intelligence.
I found myself thinking: Ouch! when he used Stone Dragon powers to bash through monsters with damage reduction.
Read literally, these Mountain Hammer powers can chew up demons, elementals, and epic monsters.
I enjoy DM-ing it, but I must admit it is very lethal. Even the weakest powers are on a par with feats, the strongest are....nasty!
Mind you, I felt the same about the Never Runs Out warlock. IMO, its at the low levels that such powers really shine, as you can face more enemies than a spellcaster can.
I've been doing some DM-ing with a buddy: single character, wilderness crawling. He plays a Stone Dragon/Iron heart warblade. So far, at low levels, the warblade chews through creatures of the same CR and can just about handle single encounters with a creature of higher CR. I am tight-fisted with treasure, but let him buy magic items in town with the little loot he's got.
In a one-on-one, 5th level warblade vs 6th level swordsage (Crimson Mask, Desert Wind specialist from book) he chewed up and spat out his opponent.
He is fairly moderate strength and Dex, but VERY high intelligence.
I found myself thinking: Ouch! when he used Stone Dragon powers to bash through monsters with damage reduction.
Read literally, these Mountain Hammer powers can chew up demons, elementals, and epic monsters.
I enjoy DM-ing it, but I must admit it is very lethal. Even the weakest powers are on a par with feats, the strongest are....nasty!
Mind you, I felt the same about the Never Runs Out warlock. IMO, its at the low levels that such powers really shine, as you can face more enemies than a spellcaster can.
Kmart Kommando
First Post
That Warblade15/Master of Nine5 isn't legal. Some of the maneuvers you took, you don't have the prereqs to take them. No wonder he's overpowered. Play him from level 1 up and his power level won't be so over the top.
gribble
Explorer
Kmart Kommando said:
Well, just to clarify, it isn't mine, it's WotCs. It was one of the pre-gen characters used for the fight vs collossal red/gargantuan black dragons at GenCon.
But, I think you're wrong anyway. I thought so at first too, but then I realised that the maneuvers shown above are only his *readied* maneuvers. Being a warblade 15/MoN 5, he will *know* a lot more than that, and I'm guessing that with the remaining known maneuvers you could meet all the pre-reqs. Of course, I don't have the book on me to verify, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.
gribble
Explorer
hamishspence said:
Thats my thoughts too, based on reading the book, making some sample characters (NPCs) and seeing the 20th level character above played at GenCon.
It's interesting to hear what you say though, as the 5th level warblade would still be limited to a single attack a round, so you wouldn't even get to the point where he'd be doing the "maneuver"/full attack and replenish/maneuver combo...
Why do you think the warblade was some much more powerful than the swordsage?
What do you think could be done to bring it more in line with the power level of other classes (both in the Tome and in other books)?
gribble said:
Make no doubt that I am not a fan of the warblade, but the wording is pretty clear on maneuver recovery. The recovery must be followed by an attack (ie standard), not a full attack. There is a huge difference there.
To be honest, warblades should have the same recovery method as a swordsage (ie full round action to recover). That would go a long way towards balancing them.
gribble
Explorer
Alceste said:
I respectfully disagree. The RAW are 100% clear that the warblade does in fact get to replenish his maneuvers with a swift action and then take a full attack action. I won't repeat my reasoning, but see posts #160 and #164 in this thread.
I won't start a debate on what WotC's intent was (as that's kind of pointless), but the rules interpretation above was confirmed by the WotC DMs at GenCon, who allowed the warblade to replenish his maneuvers with a swift action in a round that he full attacked without using maneuvers.
Alceste said:
Hmmm... I'm not sure I agree 100% here. I kind of like the fact that all the recovery mechanisms are different, and I like that fact that the swordsage has a larger number of maneuvers he can ready, but must replenish them more slowly, whereas the warblade has a lot less readied maneuvers, but can replenish them more easily. Gives them some "rules-based" flavour.
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