Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords: Proto-Review

[gribble]

Personally, I think the Tome of Battle presents some of the most mechanically interesting systems put forth by WoTC in years.

I actually agree.

With regards to the Warblade, bear in mind that the relatively limited number of total known manuevers (only 13 by 20th) is a substantial balancing factor... You basically end up focusing in on two or maybe three styles.

This I disagree with. You only *need* to get the top level maneuvers from one or two disciplines - you don't need them all. IMO, the brokenness isn't in the number of different things you can do, it's the number of times you can perform the limited number of maneuvers you know.

Also, I honestly don't feel +100 damage to be a terribly overpowered ability when compared to say, the effectiveness of your average 9th level spell.

Again, I agree, but again, I don't think it's the power of the individual maneuvers that are the problem - I like the flavor and even the mechanics for the maneuvers, and I don't think they're necessarily unbalanced. The problem (IMO) is with the warblade class and how easily they can regain maneuvers. A warblade can use a maneuver that gives him +100 damage, +2d6 con drain, etc, along with a standard attack, the next round he can full attack pretty much as well as an equivalent level fighter (possibly even better when you consider stances), then the following round he can use his maneuver again. From what I've read and what I've seen of them in play, they're clearly superior to equivalent level fighter types. Even compared to spellcasters, a sorceror can only cast his 9th level spell a maximum of 7 times in an encounter (and even then only if he has at least 28 Cha), and then after that he's hosed for any other encounters in the same day. Not only can a warblade do it an unlimited number of times per encounter, he can turn around and do it just as effectively in the following encounter... and the next... and the next. So even comparing to spellcasters I'm not sure the warblade is balanced.

 

[BryonD]

Personally, I think the Tome of Battle presents some of the most mechanically interesting systems put forth by WoTC in years.

I agree completely.

YMMV, but myself and the group of folks I usually game with are hugely pleased with, given that it allows us to design the sort of melee characters we've hungered after for years. Plus (and this a relatively minor fact), we're unabashed skill point chasers, so its nice to have melee characters with more than 2+Int.

That is all fine, but none of it makes the WB balanced.

With regards to the Warblade, bear in mind that the relatively limited number of total known manuevers (only 13 by 20th) is a substantial balancing factor, given that later manuevers begin to require X number of manuevers from that Discipline as prerequisites. The 9th level manuevers require 4 from their Discipline, which accounts for a significant fraction of the Warblades total known manuevers. You basically end up focusing in on two or maybe three styles.

How excatly is it that this creates balance?
You can't take a single manuever out of context and declare the class using it balanced.

Also, I honestly don't feel +100 damage to be a terribly overpowered ability when compared to say, the effectiveness of your average 9th level spell.

I agree. But there is no SR or saving throw here. That is somewhat offset by the need to be in melee range.

Again, I don't really have a problem with the balance of individual manuevers. (with some exceptions, but hey, the same goes for spells and psi powers, so nothing new there)

It is the overall package of the warblade class that is problematic.

The +100 could be anti-fun. Which was a concern I mentioned before. That does not make it broken. Just the nature of how it accomplishes the same thing could come across as anti-climatic.

Granted, an arcane or divine caster can't refresh those spells quite like the Warblade can, but they're sure probably packing more than enough for that one particular encounter.

What about the next encounter? And the one after that?
The caster has to consider some conservation from the word go of the very first encounter.
Even if the second encounter never happens, the caster needs to hold some back just in case.

In any event, the basis of comparison is far better understood when measured against spellcasters, rather than Fighters.

Ok.
Please identify for me the spellcaster with the following:
4 sp
D12 HD
Improved uncanny dodge
Full BAB
medium armor prof (and easy access to heavy armor if desired)
No armor penalty
something to balance stances
4 bonus feats
something to balance the various "battle XXX" abilities

Joe mentioned way back that the ranged attack limitation is solved by taking the specific PClass. It occurs to me that just taking a single level of fighter would be even easier.
Or barbarian even.

 

[kigmatzomat]

The full warblade text is:

You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon.)

Wrong. There is the attack action which is a standard action and allows you to make one melee attack or one ranged attack. There is also the full attack action, which is a full round action and allows you to make multiple melee attacks or multiple ranged attacks (if BAB or other factors - TWF, etc allow).

You'll note I bolded some of your comment as it highlights the difference between "a melee attack" and "multiple melee attacks." I believe they did not limit the action type (standard/full/move) to allow charges or coup de graces that are single attacks but not a standard action.

As currently worded, it would be perfectly legal to take a swift action to replenish your maneuvers, followed by a full attack action.

You can take a full attack action but you can't make more than "a melee attack" with it. Maybe under some special circumstances due to feats that require a "full attack action" that would be worthwhile but you still can't make more than "a melee attack."

As far as house ruling the ToB, the only thing that's worrying me is that I have a 20th level party so they would immediately qualify for 6th level maneuvers. I'm tempted to say that the total Initiator level cannot exceed Adept Levels x 4 or x5. That would give them 2nd or 3rd level maneuvers right off the bat.

Part of this is the fact that the pure fighter character is most suited to sword sage (10 cha, 10 int, 14 wis) and as a scimitar specialist he's likely to take Desert Wind, chock full of supernatural powers which doesn't exactly seem to flow from being a high ranked fighter. "Yeah, last month I was totally incompetent with magic but today all my sword attacks gain fire damage (Fiery Assault Stance), I can create a flame strike (ring of fire), I can dim-door as a move action (Shadow Stride), and teleport next to people who attack me (Leaping Flame) plus the other maneuvers I learned to qualify for those."

Nope, doesn't quite seem right to me. The power attacks, critical strikes, martial-arts type stuff I can deal with easier than a fighter using his knowledge of combat to cause fire to explode from his weapons or shadowy nooses to attack his opponents from above.

 

[gribble]

You can take a full attack action but you can't make more than "a melee attack" with it. Maybe under some special circumstances due to feats that require a "full attack action" that would be worthwhile but you still can't make more than "a melee attack."

I'll have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation here. I'm fully aware of the full text (I have the book), and nowhere does it state that you're limited to the attack action, or even that you're limited to taking a single melee attack in the round that you take the swift action plus a melee attack.

Surely if they'd meant for it to be interpreted that way, they would have stated an attack action, or even a single melee attack only, neither of which is specified. As for them wording it that way to include charge/etc, I say that by the way they word it specifically excludes charge, because in making a charge you're technically taking the swift action, then a move, then a melee attack, hence by a strict reading of the rules it's not immediately followed by a melee attack.

If you have some specific examples that might show how something like swift action, full attack (consisting of melee attack, melee attack, assuming a 6th level warblade) doesn't constitute a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack, please share.

 

[Andor]

As far as house ruling the ToB, the only thing that's worrying me is that I have a 20th level party so they would immediately qualify for 6th level maneuvers. I'm tempted to say that the total Initiator level cannot exceed Adept Levels x 4 or x5. That would give them 2nd or 3rd level maneuvers right off the bat.

Part of this is the fact that the pure fighter character is most suited to sword sage (10 cha, 10 int, 14 wis) and as a scimitar specialist he's likely to take Desert Wind, chock full of supernatural powers which doesn't exactly seem to flow from being a high ranked fighter. "Yeah, last month I was totally incompetent with magic but today all my sword attacks gain fire damage (Fiery Assault Stance), I can create a flame strike (ring of fire), I can dim-door as a move action (Shadow Stride), and teleport next to people who attack me (Leaping Flame) plus the other maneuvers I learned to qualify for those."

Nope, doesn't quite seem right to me. The power attacks, critical strikes, martial-arts type stuff I can deal with easier than a fighter using his knowledge of combat to cause fire to explode from his weapons or shadowy nooses to attack his opponents from above.

They're 20th level. Are you really worried that this is a significant powerboost?

I can see room for disbelief problems, but I think you suggested your own solution. This is one of the greatest swordsman in the world, he isn't learning magic like a wizard, he's being taught how to use what he already knows to unlock magic. It's as though you could cast a spell by dancing in a precise pattern. A tap dancer would have a leg up on learning to cast over the rest of us. Frankly a 20th level fighters abilities to carve his way through a stadium full of armed men or to survive atmospheric reentry are pretty supernatural already. There is also the point that the amount of experience needed to get that 21st level represents an amount of training that would have gotten a starting Swordsage to 6th level...

Of course it's your campaign, and you can do it however you like.

 

[satori01]

I agree completely.


That is all fine, but none of it makes the WB balanced.



Joe mentioned way back that the ranged attack limitation is solved by taking the specific PClass. It occurs to me that just taking a single level of fighter would be even easier.
Or barbarian even.

Joe also jumped to alot of conclusions w/out really thinking it thru, which is understandable from a proto 1st look review btw.

1) The PrC mentioned does not increase your intiator level. So a Warblade taking the PrC to its fullest is going to be some guy who's pretty good at combat, and has some nifty powers, but nothing overpowered. Dwarven Fighter with Ranged Weapon Mastery slashing can be imho almost as potent with axes as the PrC

2) so many of the Warblades features are situational base, I wont say the class is on the powerful side, but I cant say from just reading it, the class is overpowered.

Iron Mind is a powerful discipline, but not sure if it ranks #1 in power.

Regaining all manuevers as swift action is bogus however!

 

[weiknarf]

Warblades need extra skill points to buy the skills tied to martial schools.

 

[gribble]

GenCon 20th lvl Warblade

Ok, so as promised, here are the stats for the Warblade used in the scenario against the Colossal Red Dragon at GenCon:

Arzimon
human warblade 15/master of the nine 5
Str 31, Dex 12, Con 25, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 8
AC 36 (touch 16, ff 36); HP 260; Fort +22, Ref +12, Will +14

Stances (Dual Stance - may have 2 stances active at once for up to 10 rnds/day):
Stance of Alacrity: Can make 2 counters/rnd instead of one.
Swarm Tactics: If you are adjacent to a foe, all allies gain +5 attack vs that foe.
Press the Advantage: After a 5ft step, you may immediately take another one.
Stance of Clarity: +2 AC vs one foe, -2 AC vs all others.
Blood in the Water: +1 attack, +1 damage cumulative for every crit you make in 1 minute.

Maneuvers (Mastery of Nine - +2 attack +6 damage on all strikes):
War Master's Charge (Strike, full-round action): you charge, and all allies within 30ft immediately charge too. No oppos. All chargers gain +2 attack per charger. If you hit, deal +50 damage, and your allies deal +25 damage each. If at least 2 chargers hit, target is stunned.
Feral Death Blow (Strike, full-round action): Jump +29 vs. foes AC. If you succeed foe is flat-footed and you attack at +1 damage (this is taken directly from the sheet, but looks like a typo). If you hit, foes dies (Fort DC 31 partial) or takes 6d6+50 damage.
Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike (Strike): Make a melee attack. If you hit, you deal an extra 5d6+35 damage. Roll 1d20:
1-7: foe takes 2d6 Dex damage and spd reduced to 0 for 1d6 rnds.
8-14: foe takes 2d6 Str damage and -6 atk for 1d6 rnds.
15-20: foe takes 2d6 Str, Dex, Con damage
Fort DC 20 for half ability damage, no special effect.
Mountain Tombstone Strike (Strike): Make a melee attack. If it hits, you also deal 2d6 Con damage.
Strike of Perfect Clarity (Strike): Make a melee attack. If it hits, you also deal +100 damage.
Time Stands Still (Strike): Take a full attack action, then take another full attack action.
One with Shadow (Counter): You become incorpreal until the start of your next turn.
Diamond Defense (Counter): You gain +20 bonus to you next saving throw.
Adamantine Hurricane (Strike): Make two melee attacks against each foe at your highest attack bonus +4.
Raging Mongoose (Boost): Make two additional attacks at your highest attack bonus; you have +1 damage.
Avalanche of Blades (Strike): Attack a foe in melee, then repeat the attack at cumulative -4 until you miss.

Basic +5 keen bastard sword attack: +34/+29/+24 (1d10+17). Crit on 17-20. +4 attack and damage with oppo attacks. +4 damage vs flat-footed or flanked foes.

Initiative +1; Speed 30ft. (run x3).

This is pretty much exactly the same format as the character sheet given (i.e.: it didn't list out skills, feats, equipment, etc). There was a section at the bottom giving rules for detecting enemies (spot, listen), sneaking (hide move silent) and jumping, that I haven't included above. Definitely a "quick start" style character sheet.

Notes:
1) Each readied maneuver is only listed once, heavily implying that you *can't* ready more than one copy of a maneuver at once.
2) The sheet explicitly states: These maneuvers function like spells. Once you've used one, check it off. But when you make a basic melee attack (at the bottom of the section), you can erase all those checkmarks. The only basic attack listed is the full attack above (and also an unarmed full attack, which I haven't bothered to list above). I.e.: using your swift action in conjunction with a full attack is valid to recover all expended maneuvers. This is certainly the way it was played at the demo.

Oddly, the master of the nine PrC doesn't get a full BAB, so this warblade doesn't get 4 attacks/rnd. A straight warblade would be even nastier, as he could use Time Stands Still to do:
rnd 1: Full attack, full attack (8 attacks).
rnd 2: Recover maneuvers, full attack.
rnd 3: repeat rnd 1.
rnd 4: repeat rnd 2.
...

Each full attack would be as effective as a straight fighter, possibly even more effective with a stance like Blood in the Water active - with one warblade you effectively have 1.5 fighters in the party... and that's without even considering some of his other nasty maneuvers.

Scary stuff indeed.

 

[Graf]

Not to say the warblade isn’t a powerful class but

Each full attack would be as effective as a straight fighter, …

This isn’t factually true.
Because the warblade is getting 4 bonus feats from a limited list.
The fighter is getting -11- bonus feats from a much bigger list.
Especially with feats from books like the Complete Warrior and Player’s Handbook II a reasonably well constructed fighter will be doing more damage with a full attack.

People like to talk about the balance of a fighter as if it’s got no feats. Which is tempting because it’s easier but deceptive.

 

[resistor]

I think if I were to allow the Warblade, I'd houserule its recharge to be a move action. So they're still recharging pretty fast, but without the ability to squeeze full attacks in there.