Tome of Magic - Shadowcaster

[fuindordm]

First of all, let me say that I really enjoyed reading about the Shadowcaster. I think it's a very good class; as for balance... I'm not sure.

I was really surprised that the Shadowcaster had no illusion mysteries. It seemed like just such a natural fit, and would have given them a real niche in the party structure since outside of invisibility etc. the creative use of illusion is so rare in play.

They have a variety of very cool flavorful powers, but none of them really sing out to me as exotic enough to tempt a wizard or sorcerer away from the standard arcane lore. The only mechanical path that seems to match the enticing flavor text is the noctumancer, which really packs a lot of punch.

Any thoughts on this, Ari? And thanks for contributing to the thread!

Ben

 

[Mercule]

My impression is that they have a lot of flavor, but they're a little weak. Mind you, I haven't played one yet.

That's my knee-jerk, too. That said, there are two caveats to this.

1) The bonus feats for paths should make up a fair amount of power. This seems to be something easy to miss, but bonus feats are nothing to sneeze at. After all, that's the only thing that balances the fighter against the paladin or barbarian.

2) (or maybe 1a) The shadowcaster is a complex class, moreso than most. I get the feeling that there are a lot of subtle interactions of their abilities that would work to beef one up in actual play.

If the shadowcaster is really underpowered, it isn't by much. Plus, it has so much flavor that I'd be fine as a player.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

If you don't mind my asking, what do you feel the class lacks to bring it up to par?

Part of my problem with it is the nin-linear power curve. The class is moving along, reaches a plateau, and all of a sudden, can use 2 of its mysteries per day (or 3). Thats a sizable increase. Same deal with the binder, the difference between a 7th and 8th level binder is immense.

Other beef is the dual stat requirements. The mysteries arent superior to spells (and the shadowcaster lacks a lot of flexibility in terms of types of effects known), so I dont think the caster needs the MAD. I think just make them supernatural abilities from the start. I hardly think its a huge deal to ahve the shadowcaster casting in armor from level 1.

Generally, the meta feats seem weak as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sudden metamagic feats from other books dont require changing them to a full round action, so why should they? If the feats were 3 times a day as a full round action, it would be better, and boost the caster up to par IMO.

Class skills - they get stealth, which by itself isnt all that great. You really need the spot/seach and mechanical skills to go with that to take a big advantage of it.

Basically, the class doesnt do anything that another class doesnt do better. I couldnt make an NPC shadowcaster that I thought was more dangerous or useful than a regular wizard or sorcerer, and were I going to make a PC, I'd just make an arcane trickster.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Ari. Nice to meet you.


That's where I see the shadowcaster. With the right choice of mysteries, he can serve as a scout or a rogue. With a slightly different choice, he can function as a "blaster." He may not be as good at either as a true rogue or sorcerer, but he can accomplish either function.

Except they cant swap around their mysteries each day. If the shadowcaster is a blaster, its at the expense of something else. Not just for that day, but for his career. It lacks even the flexibility of a standard wizard or cleric. So if you wanted someone to fill in an area the party is lacking, why not just make someone who does that area better? A 5th character (to me) is one who is able to fill in multiple areas at the same time pretty well (about 50-75% as well as the specialist). The bard, the incarnate, and to a lesser extent the binder (aka, weak incarnate) as well as several prc's. The shadowcaster is more locked in whatever niche he's attempting to fill in. Heck, another wizard has more opportunity to be a better 5th character, as he just mems utility spells (invis, knock, scry, etc).

 

[Mouseferatu]

I was really surprised that the Shadowcaster had no illusion mysteries. It seemed like just such a natural fit, and would have given them a real niche in the party structure since outside of invisibility etc. the creative use of illusion is so rare in play.

I was asked to deliberately play down the "shadow = illusion" aspect. One, the illusion rules are pretty fuzzy, and they didn't want the book to rely on them; two, it's an aspect of Shadow that's been done a lot, and we wanted to move in a different direction.

That said, if you want shadowcasters to have illusions, it'd be real easy to build an apprentice and/or initiate-level path out of the basic illusion spells in the PHB. (I did so myself on the WotC boards a while back, but I can't find the thread.) Feel free to do so; tell your other players the author says it's okay.

They have a variety of very cool flavorful powers, but none of them really sing out to me as exotic enough to tempt a wizard or sorcerer away from the standard arcane lore. The only mechanical path that seems to match the enticing flavor text is the noctumancer, which really packs a lot of punch.

Any thoughts on this, Ari? And thanks for contributing to the thread!

Well, the "Creeping Darkness" sidebar aside, the shadowcaster wasn't really meant to "tempt" anyone away from anything; it's just another class.

That said, the ability to use mysteries as supernatural abilities--no disruption, no concentration checks--should definitely appeal to casters who spend a lot of time in combat.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Part of my problem with it is the nin-linear power curve. The class is moving along, reaches a plateau, and all of a sudden, can use 2 of its mysteries per day (or 3). Thats a sizable increase. Same deal with the binder, the difference between a 7th and 8th level binder is immense.

Yep. It's definitely an odd way of doing things. That was deliberate, to play up the alien nature of the magic. I can see why it won't appeal to everyone, and I wouldn't want it to become the norm, but I stand by that particular design decision for the shadowcaster specifically.

Other beef is the dual stat requirements. The mysteries arent superior to spells (and the shadowcaster lacks a lot of flexibility in terms of types of effects known), so I dont think the caster needs the MAD. I think just make them supernatural abilities from the start. I hardly think its a huge deal to ahve the shadowcaster casting in armor from level 1.

That might (or might not) be mechanically balanced, but I feel it detracts from the flavor of the class. I like the notion that the mysteries only become that integral to the character after years and levels of exposure. Let me know if you give it a try, though; I'd be interested in hearing how it plays.

Generally, the meta feats seem weak as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sudden metamagic feats from other books dont require changing them to a full round action, so why should they? If the feats were 3 times a day as a full round action, it would be better, and boost the caster up to par IMO.

They do if you're playing a sorcerer. Remember, all metamagic raises a sorcerer's casting time to a full round. Since the shadowcaster is a spontaneous caster, closer to the sorcerer than the wizard in that regard, it makes sense it would follow the same pattern.

That said, I don't think it would break the game at all if you removed that restriction.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Except they cant swap around their mysteries each day. If the shadowcaster is a blaster, its at the expense of something else. Not just for that day, but for his career. It lacks even the flexibility of a standard wizard or cleric. So if you wanted someone to fill in an area the party is lacking, why not just make someone who does that area better? A 5th character (to me) is one who is able to fill in multiple areas at the same time pretty well (about 50-75% as well as the specialist). The bard, the incarnate, and to a lesser extent the binder (aka, weak incarnate) as well as several prc's. The shadowcaster is more locked in whatever niche he's attempting to fill in. Heck, another wizard has more opportunity to be a better 5th character, as he just mems utility spells (invis, knock, scry, etc).

I suppose, ultimately, it's just a question of which mysteries you've chosen. I can see a shadowcaster with a wide variety of abilities, applicable in multiple situations, myself.

As I said upthread, I won't deny the possibility that the shadowcaster is underpowered. While I've created many new classes, it was my first attempt at creating a truly new system, and I won't swear that I got it right. I do believe, however, that it's one of those systems that works more smoothly in play than it might appear on paper. If I'm wrong, so be it, but I still want to play through it myself, and hear from others who have done so, before I accept a verdict--positive or negative--on the power issue.

 

[fuindordm]

Cool, thanks very much for your responses. Again, I really enjoyed reading about the class and the new system--they definitely helped make ToM a worthy buy.

Ben

 

[genshou]

I bought Tome of Magic specifically because of the chapter on Shadow magic, and in particular the Shadowcaster. Right now I am playing in The World's Largest Dungeon as a gestalt Shadowcaster/Rogue (coincidence, chaotix42?). She's a grey elf with the dark template from later in the chapter, so I gestalted a class with the Level Adjustment and chose to give her full levels in Shadowcaster, even though Rogue would have given me more starting skill points. She has 4 Shadowcaster levels and only 3 Rogue levels.

She has a Strength score of 4 (yes, four), so mysteries are almost the only way she can be effective in combat if she can't sneak attack. So far, she's been able to get good use out of the Dark Terrain path (for which she has Path Focus).

Ari, I'll definitely let you know how things develop as she starts to gain levels. I know she's not a swiss army knife like a Wizard, but so far she's very useful in the role I've built her for (especially with the benefits of the dark template).

Oh, and Evendur in my Story Hour? He's multiclassing into Shadowcaster next character level.

 

[satori01]

I'm going to repost my response to Psion's thread, I played a either a 1st or 3rd level Shadowcaster for a one shot adventure, ( sorry do not remember which):

"The class is so different, it is hard to project out what it can do, because you can have so many varying builds with it. I played one in what became a one shot adventure. Using Steel Shadows and Caul of Shadows you can boost your AC to a pretty high level. I also went with Voice of Shadows and Sight Eclipsed.

Played the character as the scout in a very melee oriented party.
Oddly enough, you can do it pretty well, though the lack of Trapfinding and Search hurts you compared to a rogue. The Arrow of Dusk Fundamental is pretty good even if it does only subdual damage,(not really an issue at lower level). I chose to select Arrow of Dusk twice as one on my intial Fundamentals (Caul of Shadow being the other), and being able to cast it 6x day felt pretty cool.

The Class is a strange one, cant say I have what I would call an experts grasp on it. One can hope Ari will pop by and show us the way, or at least offer some advice on builds."

I chose Arrow of Dusk twice at first level, which technically you are not supposed to do, but since you can chose Fundamentals again at higher levels, it was ruled by myself and the DM to be ok .

I found the Metamystery feats to be a bit lack luster. One time a day for a feat just did not seem compelling.