[Tome of Magic] Tell me about the Binder!

[catsclaw227]

I call upon the collective wisdom of mighty EnWorld!

(I just need the right Pact Magic symbol)

Tell me about binders and how they play. Are they balnced? Do they actually play differently than they look in text? What are the cool benefits, drawbacks? Where do they excell, fail? How well does Pact magic balance? Should they multi-class? if so, what do they multiclass well with?

All Binder DMs and Players, unite and answer my call!

 

[Mouseferatu]

I think, both conceptually and mechanically, binders are the most fascinating of the three new classes in Tome of Magic--and I say that as the author of one of the other two new classes. I think they capture a really nifty occult feel without getting too into "real-world" occult (although many of the vestiges are, in fact, based on goetic spirits).

They play pretty solidly, though I'd strongly recommend the feat that allows you to boot one out in the middle of the day, and that the character acquire a vestige phylactery asap, as both greatly increase the character's versatility.

Now, here's the one caveat. I played a binder for a while, and I wound up changing characters afterward. This is not because it's a bad class. Everything I said above stands; it's interesting, and it's balanced. However, it very much falls into the same category, at least IME, as the bard--it's more of a support class. It can do almost anything (given prep time), but it's not best at anything. My own personal play style leans in other directions; I prefer a character who may not shine all the time, but definitely does shine in his one particular area. I'm not a fan of support characters. But that's very much a personal style issue, not a problem with the class per se.

Edit: So as not to be too cryptic with my prior comment, I should make it clear that I wrote the shadowcaster portion of that book. I had nothing to do with the binder, except for one vestige--Tenebrous--and the prestige class associated with him. The mechanics and the flavor of the binder are all Matt Sernett, and many a kudo to him for it.

 

[Wrathamon]

I agree with the creator, except that as a DM a Binder character can be a real pain in the butt and hard to plan around. Some of the at will abilities that last all day can be hard to plan around with ingenious players.

Flicker is a pain in my behind

 

[Nifft]

The Binder is a tall mug of hot chocolate awesome -- which is a particularly awesome flavor of awesome!

You're as flexible as you want to be, or as focused as you want to be. You can focus your feat choices on particular tactics (and thus particular vestiges), or you can keep yourself general and choose a different role every day.

You shine in low-equipment campaigns (because you can give yourself armor and weapons, or claws, or ... etc.), but you work well in normal campaigns too. Strategically in terms of play style, think of yourself as a Wizard or Cleric -- you pick your "mystical load-out" at the beginning of the day, and your choices then determine what you can do for the rest of the day.

IMHO it's one of the coolest new classes.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nyeshet]

The only problem I ever had with it was the set up for seals. The text seemed to imply that one of the core reasons Binders wander / adventure was to find new seals and thus unlock new potential powers for themselves, yet the example NPCs and some other text seemed to suggest that whenever a Binder leveled up, whatever vestiges they might want to bind with are already known - that is, that all vestiges were already known. I understand the possible need for this, as otherwise the Binder - overly limited in what they can bind with - is significantly weakened, but it still comes across as a bit confusing.

On the other hand, I tend to really like the concept of Binders. I would have preferred it as a series of feats, however, so that it would better fit in my campaign setting for the diabloists, but otherwise I tend to really like it. At one time I intended to attempt to modify the system into a feat based one, but I got side tracked and never got around to it. Basically, however, it would be akin to feats for various levels of binding (say, each feat grants +3 to the level, with the first feat being up to level 3 vestiges), and other feats to allow for multiple bindings, enhanced binding, etc. Ah, well, it is just an idea of mine. I'll work on it more, someday.

 

[Henry]

I've played one for a short time (8th level to currently 9th, game on temp. hiatus), and the biggest problem is as mouseferatu said. I didn't plan for switching vestiges, and as a result I felt a bit like a general always fighting the last war. If you pick the right vestige, it rocks; if you meet a challenge with the wrong thing prepared, you feel a bit like a fifth wheel.

There's a heck of a lot of flavor to the class, it oozes it without assistance -- but it's no Warblade or Swordsage (book of 9 swords) by a LONG SHOT.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

The only problem I ever had with it was the set up for seals. The text seemed to imply that one of the core reasons Binders wander / adventure was to find new seals and thus unlock new potential powers for themselves, yet the example NPCs and some other text seemed to suggest that whenever a Binder leveled up, whatever vestiges they might want to bind with are already known - that is, that all vestiges were already known. I understand the possible need for this, as otherwise the Binder - overly limited in what they can bind with - is significantly weakened, but it still comes across as a bit confusing.

How I'd "game" that one is that by the process of self-exploration and gaining knowledge in the world (reflected by XP), they find new seals and gain their abilities and knowledge; they don't "find" them in a dusty tome or on the altar of a forbidden temple, but through acting in the world.

 

[catsclaw227]

This is all great feedback.

I have a swordsage in the party, as well as a ..... well, just check my sig in the OP. The binder would likely replace either the beguiler or the cleric. These are NPCs that have been necessary to keep the party size to 4 for Savage Tide. They are played by the two players. Which would you likely replace if you were to add a third player as a binder?

 

[catsclaw227]

They play pretty solidly, though I'd strongly recommend the feat that allows you to boot one out in the middle of the day, and that the character acquire a vestige phylactery asap, as both greatly increase the character's versatility.

If the PC will start at 4th level, would giving them a vestige phylactery be OK from a power standpoint (I don't have my books with me, so I don't know what it does exactly)?

Also, as a house rule, I give a free feat at 1st level, so that will help.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Good concept, weak implementation. They need to be able to shift vestiges at a moment's notice to actually be more versatile than a prepared spellcaster, and too many of their powers revolve around granting the basics (weapon/armor proficiency) that the class needs from the get-go. Mechanically, I find incarnates a much better adaptable character. Also, many of their powers simply do not need to be on a 5 round timer.