Tome of Magic - Using Demon Lords as Vestiges?

[Waylander]

For a while now I've been trying to integrate the Demon Lords of the Abyss in my campaign to a character class without them becoming merely an alternative source of arcane or divine magic.

Looking at the Binder class in Tome of Magic has me thinking that this might be a way forwards with vestiges replaced by Demon Lords.

Before I embark on this fairly comprehensive retooling of vestiges I just wondered if anyone had already done it?

My only concern is trying to tie in an element of what the Demon Lords would gain out of the pact and still keep the class playable (without it becoming an evil alignment based class - in the campaign they are imprisoned in the Abyss and await summoning by mortals (when they typically wreck havock!).

 

[Nifft]

I'm sure you could do it -- you could even just re-flavor Vestiges so that each one was "owned" by one demon-lord or another. (Which is why the angelic Focalor is so very sad, for example.)

Then the Vestiges themselves aren't evil, but the pact's master surely is.

Cheers, -- N

 

[magic_gathering2001]

You could have the demon take control on a critical failure of a binding check

 

[FunkBGR]

Make sure if you do re-tool it to share with ENWorld for those of us too busy to do so ourselves - please?

 

[smootrk]

I am sure that a number of the vestiges can be renamed after demon lords (with the appropriate realm of influence) with little effort. Others may require some imagination to re-tool.

One way to make headway on a project like this, is to simply start with the Outsider, figure out what is rather iconic about them, then simply create the vestige power based on that iconic ability - rather than trying to re-name each existing vestige.

I would start with a rather small list of vestiges and powers, then have the player guide the development of the vestiges based on his research/adventuring experiences and the types of powers he/she wants to acquire. He finds the appropriate fiendish being, researches how to summon up or communicate with this being, then bargains for the powers. If the player wants to speak with Orcus, then establish Orcus's vestige powers or maybe vestiges of his subordinate demons.

I would also make the bargaining for powers be contingent on other relationships that the player has developed. Yeenoghu is rivals with Baphomet, Orcus vs. Demogorgon, etc. It may be difficult to acquire powers based on previous choices, or possibly if there are allegiances between certain fiends, then it may be easier. This is where information in Fiendish Codex 1 & 2 may become very valuable in re-tooling the binder class.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I actually proposed just such an article to Dragon, but alas, they weren't interested.

 

[BRP2]

Oh, oh, include Elemental Lords too ;o.

 

[smootrk]

Oh, oh, include Elemental Lords too ;o.

I agree. Excellent sources for vestiges, especially with powers associated with the elements.

 

[smootrk]

I actually proposed just such an article to Dragon, but alas, they weren't interested.

They probably did not want to go down the path of bargaining with fiends for powers - all too much like the 80's equating D&D with Devil Worshiping. I have no doubt that the choice of using mostly unknown/made-up names for vestiges was very deliberate.

 

[Nifft]

I have no doubt that the choice of using mostly unknown/made-up names for vestiges was very deliberate.

I think they got a lot of them from "real life" Goetic lore...

Didn't someone recently say, "be careful studying the occult -- you could end up playing Dungeons & Dragons!"

Cheers, -- N