Too fast! Too fast!

[tennyson]

It is not a matter of playing high level games. Back in the 2E days, we played a marathon weekend high level game. It was ok, but not as much fun because the players were not totally aware of all of the abilities of their characters.

The same problem exists in 3E/3.5 if the characters level too quickly. Players who are not used to playing higher level characters do not get the same richness of game because they are not aware of all of the abilities of their characters and end up relying on low level tactics, etc. With more time to learn their characters, however, they end up getting more out of the game because they have the time to learn.

And, the same occurs for the DM. If the characters level too quickly, he has to scramble a little more to challenge them unless he merely picks appropriate CR monsters from the book and that is not as much fun as designing your own higher level NPC challenges.

You hit the nail on the head. My sentiments exactly.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The same problem exists in 3E/3.5 if the characters level too quickly. Players who are not used to playing higher level characters do not get the same richness of game because they are not aware of all of the abilities of their characters and end up relying on low level tactics, etc. With more time to learn their characters, however, they end up getting more out of the game because they have the time to learn.

And, the same occurs for the DM. If the characters level too quickly, he has to scramble a little more to challenge them unless he merely picks appropriate CR monsters from the book and that is not as much fun as designing your own higher level NPC challenges.

What you say is certainly true, but it cuts both ways. One could argue I am also getting a less rich experience if I never get to play my character to a high level or use high level abilities.

In theory, it would "eventually" happen. In practice, campaigns do break up.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

double post

 

[Ferox4]

..... because the players were not totally aware of all of the abilities of their characters.

The same problem exists in 3E/3.5 if the characters level too quickly. Players who are not used to playing higher level characters do not get the same richness of game because they are not aware of all of the abilities of their characters and end up relying on low level tactics, etc.

Here! Here! Something else to add is that once you get above levels 12-13 there are seldom any random encounters because the party isn't traveling on foot. Most travel becomes magical. We Wind Walk everywhere. And the plot is so thick by then that almost every encounter is BIG (otherwise it's not worth risking a life). This results in high XP awards and quicker leveling.

I don't wish for the 1E exponential XP progression (I need how many million XPs?), but we have taken steps to slow down progression.

Well put, KarinsDad.

 

[Endur]

Another approach to experience.

Suppose you are playing a mega-module like Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, or City of the Spider Queen. These mega modules usually have a level range (4-12, 10-18, etc.) that the module is supposed to take characters from. Well, go ahead and divide the levels over the chapters in the mega module. Then just level up the characters every time they complete a chapter or a part of a chapter.

Just remember to factor in a few extra level-ups, as most of the major mega-modules presume that characters will die and be raised at least once or twice.

 

[andargor]

Hi Everyone,

My group and I have been playing 3E since its release, and now 3.5. On average, we play once every two weeks for about 7 hours.

We've started a new campaign and are coming up on the 8th session next week. The problem is (and it's something that I know has been discussed here before) is the rate of leveling. I'm using the formulas from the DMG for experience, and my players are already lvl 6 (not to mention, two of them are PCs with level adjustment +1).

It's not that I want to "keep them down", but they are advancing far faster than the storyline. At this rate, they will be epic characters by the time the main plot is half finished.

Does the leveling slow down after a certain point? How have you handled these situations? Sorry for rehashing an old subject, but I couldn't seem to find any related topics from the past.

Thanks!

Hi,

I've just run a few stats for comparison purposes. From my calculations:

• Assuming 56 game hours for 6 levels
• Your players gain 0.75 levels per session, or spend 1.33 sessions per level
• That equates to 0.11 levels per gaming hour, or 9.33 hours per level gained

This is the stats of our group. We've been playing for 2 years in the current campaign, 4 hours every 2 to 3 weeks (40 sessions total), and the character level is 13 on average.

• Assuming 160 game hours for 13 levels
• Our players gain 0.325 levels per session, or spend 3.07 sessions per level
• That equates to 0.08 levels per gaming hour, or 12.3 hours per level gained

As you see, you are a little faster than us. However, it does slow down a bit past level 6-8. We also have a lot of RP, and have about 2 "medium" encounters per 3 sessions. We have the occasional encounter that is way over our head, but nets us a lot of XP.

Hope this helps.

Andargor

 

[Vahktang]

Talk to the players.
Do they think progression is too fast.
See if you can talk them into a percentage, 1/2 is easiest.

Otherwise, there are a lot of level drainer undeads out there, they sometimes travel in packs, and retorations are expensive.

More later,

Vahktang

 

[swrushing]

I just wrapped up my campaign of ~3 years where they went from 2nd to 15th levels.

i handled Xp very simply.

I told them when they levelled up. it happened about every two to three months real time. In the beginning i was actually counting encounters (not Xp, cut out the middle man) but after a short while it turned into calendar and good dramtic point based.

In the game i am about to begin, they will level up at the end of the month (real time) for the first three months (sort of a get used to character and get settled in with ability to change) and after that level up every third month.

it worked fine.

if the by the numbers pace is not serving your game well, set the pace that will. if straight calendar reckoning doesn't work for you, pick dramatically appropriate moments as the cue for levelling up.

 

[Avalin]

Our group's new experiment...

My current group recently came off a long story arc with average party attendance of 9 - 12 players per session. 3.0 XP did not really give us any difficulty, but then with that many players my story arc was probably different from most. By the time XP was divided among so many, plus attendant flunkies and NPCs about a years worth of gaming completed the 1st part of that setting's trillogy with the players ranging from 6th to 9th level. We met once a month and gamed for 12 to 14 hours.

For our current game we're now on 3.5 with a small subset of core players that had requested a challenging world setting with a great deal if IC discovery. Part of facilitating this was that we decided on slowing down the rate of level gain. At first there were no hard rules for doing this, we decided to experiment. Here's what we have come to at this point. As has already been proposed we double the number of necessary XP, however this will likely change as we have also been experimenting with ways to speed combat so we can have several decent battles and lots of pure role play in the same session (where that much combat is appropriate). One of the players keeps track of kills and I run a tally behind the scenes. In our case the players themselves have some control over their ability to level. This is a pretty mature bunch of people to begin with, and so I trust their judgement. If the players decide that they have done enough adventuring that a level up is deserved and if they are unanimous in that they will suggest it to me. I will then look over their exploits and yea/nea it depending. Recently they gained about 3x the XP needed to level up, but one of the players (the main warrior) did not feel that the group was wholly deserving so they have decided to wait another session. I really respected that because one of the reasons that they had so many extra XP was that the group fought some creatures of equivalent CR which should have been quite challenging, but were particularly susceptible to a strategy that they devised to deal with them.

For my own part I may also begin applying increasing fractional penalties to non-lethal level encounters with lower CR. Say .75 for 1 CR lower, .5 for 2, etc...

I'm also looking over the Immortal's Handbook CR calculation method, and while it looks great it also looks like a lot of work which I really don't have time for.

 

[Vanye]

One thing you mentioned that I feel a need to address: you give out XP for roleplaying. That might be one reason why your PC's are advancing faster than you believe they should.

Remember, XP is based on overcoming challenges. If you are giving XP simply because someone interacted well with a shopkeep or a guard, then they're not overcoming a challenge, and they've learned nothing.

Now, if they were haggling, or attempting to get somewhere they shouldn't have been allowed, or causing a distraction so someone else could do something, that's good. That's a good Challenge to overcome, but simply talking to someone shouldn't necessarily get XP.