Too many ingredients make the soup flavorless?

[sniffles]

You know, this thread really gave me some food for thought (pun intended). I would not want to see XP penalties for multiclassing reinstated in the campaigns I play in, but it's true that the variety of options available to all character races makes things a bit homogenous. I've been making my elves stand out by roleplaying, but it would be nice to make them stand out in some other way.

I've always felt a bit frustrated that all the longer-lived races don't get any kind of bonus to demonstrate that they've been around longer than human characters. But I don't know of any way to simulate that without invoking some kind of level adjustment or causing an imbalance.

(goes away scratching head thoughtfully...)

 

[Von Ether]

You know, this thread really gave me some food for thought (pun intended). I would not want to see XP penalties for multiclassing reinstated in the campaigns I play in, but it's true that the variety of options available to all character races makes things a bit homogenous. I've been making my elves stand out by roleplaying, but it would be nice to make them stand out in some other way.

I've always felt a bit frustrated that all the longer-lived races don't get any kind of bonus to demonstrate that they've been around longer than human characters. But I don't know of any way to simulate that without invoking some kind of level adjustment or causing an imbalance.

(goes away scratching head thoughtfully...)

Hmmm. only let humans get multiclass and prestige classes, thus demi humans are the only ones who can go the highest levels in the core classes?

Simply put, if I wasn't running a game at a FGLS and allowing lots of books to be included to help sales at the store, I'd be much more restrictive on what I'd allow. Any prestige class I'd allow in would have some sort of organizational tie and some demi-human races would be off limits simply to make them more exotic and dangerous.

On the flip side, for NPC's I'd be full-on using as many resources to make most of my NPC have an surprise or two up their sleeve.

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

To continue the metaphor...

Too many ingredients can ruin a soup. Whether they make it flavorless, or simply make it taste nasty, varies from soup to soup. I want only a select few, well-chosen ingredients in my soup.

D&D isn't soup. D&D is the kitchen. The campaign is the soup.

WotC's job is to provide you with a fully stocked kitchen. It's the DM's job to be the chef, and choose the ingredients appropriate for a specific soup.

Bring on the books of options.

Then we crank it up a notch?

How about a spinoff for the Iron DM? Instead of adventures, campaign seeds are mixed. The bad thing about the idea is the campaigns might just be one-shots.

 

[Li Shenron]

How about a spinoff for the Iron DM? Instead of adventures, campaign seeds are mixed. The bad thing about the idea is the campaigns might just be one-shots.

That is something I'd definitely like a lot! Tho I am unlikely to participate in the contest, it could be a nice mental exercise

 

[Li Shenron]

Depends on what exactly you mean by restrictions.

Well I am uncertain myself... I'm just thinking about the whole thing to find out about it

The Rokugan setting has been going through my mind a lot in the past few months since I bought the AEG sourcebook, and I use it here as an example how to make "restrictions" which can help instead of being an obstacle.

In Rokugan, the available classes are: Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Samurai, Monk, Inkyo, Rogue, Ninja, Courtier, Shugenja and Sorcerer.

The available races are: Human, Nezumi (rat-men) and Naga (more humanoid than the MM version). However humans are distinguished between bushi (nobles), heimins (non-nobles), hinins (servants) and gaijin (strangers).

The setting doesn't allow all combinations between races and classes.

The players are strongly encouraged to play bushi characters, which can choose any of the 11 classes, although some of them are more prestigious in the society: Samurai, Shugenja and Courtier. These 3 classes are not available for non-bushi characters, and this is explained by the fact that you need training in a clan's school to become one of those, and schools are open only to members of a clan (i.e. nobles). The only exception is that of a Ronin, which is basically a Samurai who lost his status but retains the abilities. Gaijins are mostly discouraged to but could take a western class from the PHB.

Nezumi and Naga have their more popular classes. For instance, Nezumi spellcasters are all Sorcerers and not Shugenja, like non-noble humans.

With these sort of "restrictions" the setting increases the strength of flavor to the different races. If every class was possible to every race, and every caste, after a while the races would quite mix up too much in flavor and you'll be left with just the +2/-2 ability modifiers and the physical appearance. That is what our (core D&D) games feel like nowadays, when a human, an elf, a dwarf, a half-orc and a drow in the world are just about the same...

 

[Vanion]

Good example, though my familiarity with Rokugan is vague at best (borrowed the core book once and I can remember all the race/class/clan combinations you mentioned), and it that case I definitely have to agree with the decision to make restrictions simply because it suited the setting more than anything.

Applying that to FR, you can apply the logic to some degree. As an example (a particularly glaring one since I'm not thinking well right now), if someone who's spent their formative years in an Uthgardt tribe (or better yet, an orc tribe) wants to take wizard at level one, you can put your foot down - it's a class that requires very specialised, formalised training, not the kind you'd find in the average group of semi-nomadic raiders. Because human and non-human nations rarely have much in the way of restrictions in place, hardline ideologies or political nuances that add some flavour, you'd be forced to create a somewhat distopian world or abandon the setting altogether in order to apply something that really had a lot of strength.

Meh, I get what you're saying, and my only real advice is either to tinker with the FRCS (I know a couple of guys who came up with some interesting Dystopian ideas) or to simply find a setting you and your players dig more.

 

[Westgate Polks]

Iconoclastic Characters and A Plethora of Choices

Li - I know where you are coming from. What I find very interesting with the demi-human characters is that the severity of the shift from iconoclastic varies from race to race. For example, most dwarven PCs that I have seen are fighters, clerics, or a mix; not too different from before. Almost all halflings are rogues - again not too different. Elves, however, are all over the map. I think that demonstrates the popularity of elves more than anything else.

When I first read the 3.0 PHB, the big thing that lept out at me was the elimination of the racial limitations to class level. I thought that was the best thing since movable type, and I still feel that way. The current system allows for 77 different race/class combinations (including ONLY PHB material). Throw in the new core classes from the complete series and you get over 150; let's not even BEGIN to examine the Prestige Classes, the monster races, etc. IN the midst of all those choices the elven wizard we all know and love is lost in the mix.

However, that does not represent a problem with the system. As Turanil points out (and many others concur) the DM has the ability to identify what's appropriate. As an example, I was designed a first-level campaign taking place is the Calimshan region of the Forgotten Realms. I went through the material and decided what races could and couldn't be selected and also limited what classes were available, what classes were limited, and what ones were unavailable.

Just as DMs select monsters based on many things (including geography), so too should the DM select player options. If something does not fit the particular flavor, it gets set aside for the particular campaign. Of course, this has serious effects on players and highlights why communication before the beginning of a new campaign is particularly important. If the DM does not bother to ascertain what a group of players is looking for before the campaign then she will be hard-pressed to design a winning environment. Conversly, if the DM and the players are on the same page, then these "restrictions" likely will be accepted in stride and contribute to the environment. If a particular region does not allow PC wizards, then the wizard they run across becomes that much more intriguing.

Sometimes I take it a step further. I play with several different groups of gamers, but there is one player (one of my best friends) who I have been playing with for almost 18 years. He goes through phases were character class x is his favorite. From time to time I will create individual restrictions, i.e. Pete, you can NOT play an elf in this campaign. I use it sparingly, but there are instances where people need to be "encouraged" to try new things.

 

[Deadguy]

Perhaps part of the problem stems from seeing the PCs as indicative of the make-up the world?

If PCs are meant to be a typical cross-section of their society, then, yes I would guess that it would make some societies seem seriously weird! But if the PCs are simply the special folks to whom adventure happens, then their races and classes tell you little about the world.

In other words, following the latter path, it's up the DM to emphasise the stereotypes of the campaign setting. Perhaps that PC elven paladin will never meet another such paladin; perhaps in this world almost all paladins are human. Don't underestimate the DM's power to create the illusion desired.

Perhaps another aspect of this is that DM's too like to create iconoclastic villains and allies. If the DM doesn't want to abide by a setting's flavour, is it fair to expect players to do so too?

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't think that 2ed level limit for demihumans falls in the same league of the restrictions I have in mind. Were those absolute character level limit in any class? If that was the case, then they were just stupid... what happened to your game if you reached the next level? Did you have to retire the characters who got stuck or otherwise play them even if they fell behind the rest of the group?

 

[TerraDave]

I don't think that 2ed level limit for demihumans falls in the same league of the restrictions I have in mind. Were those absolute character level limit in any class? If that was the case, then they were just stupid... what happened to your game if you reached the next level? Did you have to retire the characters who got stuck or otherwise play them even if they fell behind the rest of the group?

Level limits weren't a very good mechanic for a few reasons (limits on class allowed, that depends).

What we do is instead of a favoured class, race determines starting class. For example, a starting Grey Elf can be a Fighter, Paladin, Priest of Arcane Wisdom, Preist of Elemental Power, Sorcerer, Bard, Wizard, or Specialist Wizard.

Humans also have a limited set of starting classes depending on their home region (though if they have some choice in home region they will have a wider selection overall). This allows for culture to have an impact, but gives the PC quite a bit of flexibility later on.