Too much magic in DnD - lets do something about it !

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Hong, you write thoughtfull posts, most of which I disagree with but thoughtfull nonetheless. I have, however, lost the track of what exactly are you trying to argue. Are you with us on a project to try to make d20 game (or version of DnD) for low-magic campaigns or are you just hanging arround telling us all how dumb what we are doing is ?

Speaking of doing something can we try to compile the list of the "offending" spells and possibly even of thg spells that need to be introduced to create the low-magic feel.

Offenders (so far from what has been mentioned here:

-Most of Evocation school
-Invisibility (at least Improved version)
-Fly
-Teleport
-Raise Dead (in all of its incarnations)
...
please add more.


Stuff that needs to be changed/added:
-Summoning to last longer so it is not exclusively combat item (possibly to have much longer casting time as well) Possibly just adopt demon summoning from "Demonology"
-Necromancers being able to raise dead from the begining (see my feat some posts back)
-Some sort of shapechanging earlier in mage's career but not as powerfull as actual polymorph self
-More subtle versions of encantements then Charm Person (take a look at the class abilities of the Silent Companion from T&T)
-Curses (lots of nice curses without blanket remove curse)
...
 

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The point I've been trying to make all along is that a "low-magic" game, without fireballs and such, is one that probably isn't going to appeal to gamers who like magic. This is fine if you like playing Conan or Lancelot types, but not everyone thinks the same way. It's useless to pretend that magic users will have the same appeal once you've taken away some of their niftiest toys.
Probably not. And the point I (and several others) have made is that we are not those kinds of gamers. Therefore, many of your arguments are inappropriate given the nature of the thread. I don't think anyone here is trying to decide whether or not we want a low magic campaign: those are decisions we've already made. I'd like to see more solutions on how to pull it off. I have some philosophical problems with some of the solutions so far presented (and maybe that's why my solutions have been generally ignored: they differ too much from what everyone else is doing) but I like seeing them. Arguments about whether or not I should do it, or why or why not don't really interest me, and are beside the point anyway.
 
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One of the first things I did to create a low-magic campaign was to simply re-designate the 'spells-per-day' charts into 'spells-per-week' charts, dropping the 0-level section of the chart, and turning 0-level spells into feats. I then eliminated spell-casting rom the ranger, paladin, etc. (and did NOT replace it with extra feats/skills/etc.--see my rant about 'balance' below), and made healing the province of herbalists and chirurgeons (read: NPC 'Expert' class from DMG), not clerics.

Something else I'm looking at is having clerics receive ONLY the Domain spells (with druids getting to select from appropriate domains).

(Lately, I have also been giving thought to a completely feat-based magic system, and doing away with 'spells-per-day' entirely.)

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[rant]

With regard to classes being 'balanced' against each other: I just don't think it's necessary.

Real people aren't balanced.

Walk out into an average-sized crowd of people. I'll almost guarantee you that there is at least one person--and probably more--in that crowd with more money, brighter prospects, a happier home life, more skills (job-related and otherwise), a higher level of social acceptance, etc. than you have.

I'm not talking about someone who would be (to use a game term) of a 'higher level' than you; I'm just talking about a guy walking down the street. Physically, mentally, the two of you may be equal, but he has 'everything,' and you--in comparison--have nothing. It isn't because he worked for it, or somehow earned it; he just has it...and you don't.

It happens.

Real people aren't balanced.

"But, I wouldn't want to play in a game where someone can have something that I can't have, no matter how hard I work for it."

You already do.

[/rant]

Regards,
Darrell King
 
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We've covered a lot of ground in this thread so far, and I thought it might be helpful to summarize some of the key points so far (or my take on them).

D&D presents rules suggesting a "high magic" world, one where magic is common, reliable, and flashy. A wizard's apprentice can cast Ray of Frost daily with no fear of unintended consequences -- and no doubt in any spectator's mind that he has cast a magic spell. Magic works like clockwork: observable, reliable, common, and not at all mysterious.

Many people would prefer a "low magic" system where magic is secretive and uncommon, where it exacts a price and leads to unintended consequences -- and where you're not always clear what's magic and what isn't.

Since the "low magic" people complained that D&D's magic system is bland and uninspiring, one of the first solutions offered was to spice up magic with evocative descriptions. Saying "I cast Magic Missile" is quite bland. Describing a flock of tiny demons winging toward your foe isn't. Good advice, but it still leaves us with wizards who can Magic Missile daily, at no real cost.

Another solution offered, pretty straightforward, was to restrict the levels played. At lower levels, D&D magic is...lower. If we want "low magic", this should solve our problem. But it doesn't. If D&D spells progressed from subtle to flashy, this would work quite well, but low-level staples include: Ray of Frost, Magic Missile, Color Spray, etc. And "low magic" staples include many higher-level spells that our low-level Wizards can't cast (e.g. Bestow Curse).

OK, that doesn't quite work, but what about replacing the core spellcasters with Oriental Adventure's Shaman class? This is actually quite similar to my own idea to shift around the spell lists, and I feel it could work pretty well -- it's a good start -- but I still feel you could get better results by hand-picking (as DM) an appropriate spell list. The Shaman's healing spells are still quite flashy, for instance. And the rest of the Shaman class doesn't necessarily fit a generic spellcaster; Improved Unarmed Attack would obviously have to go.

If we're going to set up new spell lists, how should we do it? Won't we destroy game balance? This opens a whole new barrel of monkeys. Is the current Wizard spell list balanced? Certain spells are much, much more popular at certain levels, and certain far less powerful spells are placed at higher levels.

For instance, Sleep effectively "kills" 2d4 Hit Dice worth of characters (who fail a Will save). Is it unbalanced to instead turn those victims into toads? Into statues of stone? Or to simply curse them until they find True Love or perform Herculean labors for the wizard (and probably die trying)?

This last example gets at another point that creeps into "low magic" versus "high magic": magic as plot device. Many of us would prefer magic that complicates the plot and provides new challenges, that offers something qualitatively different from the damage meted out by brave warriors with lances and swords. Ravenloft's curse mechanics, especially the twist of adding an Escape Clause to most spells, can turn magic into a story-generator, not a grenade-launcher.

If we move spells around and balance their power perfectly, we're still left with the problem that casters can cast a certain exact number of spells per day, they know exactly how many spells that is, and casting those spells has no other cost. If you can Charm Person "just" three times a day, is that any kind of limit? How can you explain a world where people have that power but don't use it every day? Is turning invisible for "just" half an hour a day much of a limit? How many banks could you rob?

There are a few ways to address to this. One simple change I've suggested in the past (but not in this thread so far) is to change "spells per day" into "spells per week" or "spells per month". This has little effect on dungeon-crawling spellcasters -- they clear out a dungeon in a day anyway -- but it explains why there's less magic in the world at large.

Or we can introduce a cost to "restocking" spell slots. Perhaps pious priests need to perform tasks for their god. Perhaps evil sorcerers need to spill innocent blood for their demon patrons. Perhaps the wizard needs to gather up herbs at midnight of Midsummer's Eve. These costs can naturally lead to more adventures and drama.

Or, as others have pointed out, we can force some kind of spell roll for spellcasting. Virtually every other system requires it. Failing the roll doesn't have to mean watching the Fireball fizzle. It can exact a game-mechanic cost on the caster (subdual damage, Con damage, damage to all abilities, cumulative penalties to any further spellcasting), it can mean unintended consequences (polymorphing someone else too, or changing into the wrong animal), whatever you want. But it does explain why magic would be saved up for special occasions, and it hopefully leads to more exciting stories.
 

On Game Balance: Game balance matters because D&D is, first and foremost, a game. Games are meant to be fun, and it's not fun if all playable choices are not equally valid. Dancey figured this out when he led the 3E redesign project, and look at what the result of that wisdom wrought for gaming as a whole: a resurgance unseen in decades. Do not be so cavalier about game balance.

On Magic Levels: The proposals that I've seen, to date, do not inspire confidence in me. For your own use, with players you know will go along with your changes, this is fine. If you try to push it beyond your table, then I expect that you will run into stiff resistance from the larger community of D&D players.

WotC didn't calibrate D&D to be a high-magic game on a whim; WotC did so because they discerned through market research that this is what Joe Gamer wants when he plays D&D. The commercial appeal of low-magic D&D is, well, low. If that's cool with you, that's cool with me and we can all thwop orcs happily.
 

Darrell said:
[rant]

With regard to classes being 'balanced' against each other: I just don't think it's necessary.

Real people aren't balanced.

Walk out into an average-sized crowd of people. I'll almost guarantee you that there is at least one person--and probably more--in that crowd with more money, brighter prospects, a happier home life, more skills (job-related and otherwise), a higher level of social acceptance, etc. than you have.

I'm not talking about someone who would be (to use a game term) of a 'higher level' than you; I'm just talking about a guy walking down the street. Physically, mentally, the two of you may be equal, but he has 'everything,' and you--in comparison--have nothing. It isn't because he worked for it, or somehow earned it; he just has it...and you don't.
[/rant]

Characters in a standard-issue D&D world aren't necessarily balanced. PC classes are roughly balanced if the characters are the same level and built with the same character creation method (and, if dice are involved, no one rolls a lot better or worse than anyone else). PC classes aren't balanced against NPC classes, and Adepts, Experts, Warriors, and Aristocrats aren't balanced against Commoners. And unusual wealth levels (either far more or far less than is standard) can make characters of the same level even more disparate.

But when two real-world people of roughly similar physical and mental abilities, roughly similar training, and with roughly similar amounts of resources to start with end up in very different circumstances, it's almost universal that the one who's 'better off' did, in fact, work for it, and hence would be 'higher level' if real life were a class and levels RPG.
 


I'd just like to hop on the bandwagon, myself. I want there to exist a low-magic system that I can use for a campaign setting when the flash-bang gets old and I want something a bit more evocative.

...not, of course, that the high magic of D&D is wrong or bad or that it's TOO flashy. It does what it sets out to do. I'd just like the chance to taste a bit of a different flavor.

So I'm on the bandwagon....and what would I like to see in a low-magic world?

Here's some brainstorms:

-> Default spellcasting classes as PrC's. New spellcasting class at Adept or lower level of spellcasting.

-> Magic has a Price/Risk/Something. I think subdual damage does good for this as a base rule, perhaps with a variant on the other ways of "paying" for magic.

-> Natural abilities have made up for the lack of magic. This is a bigger change than many may think. It's not just about neutering spell lists. It's about the wildlife that inhabits the world. In a low-magic campaign, the frequency of strange and exotic things occuring is going to be quite rare (dragons may terrorize a countryside, and it's news for hundreds of years after). This doesn't have to include low-level play, but creatures with things like damage reduction are going to be harder to kill if magic is scarce.

So, I'm offering my ideas and my sounding board as a dude who likes high magic just fine, but would like to see low-magic too.
 

On Game Balance: Game balance matters because D&D is, first and foremost, a game. Games are meant to be fun, and it's not fun if all playable choices are not equally valid. Dancey figured this out when he led the 3E redesign project, and look at what the result of that wisdom wrought for gaming as a whole: a resurgance unseen in decades. Do not be so cavalier about game balance.

Don't be cavalier about compromising other aspects of the game in the name of game balance either, though. It is far from the be-all and end-all of what makes D&D fun. It is important, but not important enough to give it carte blanche over other design goals.

Dancey also realised that a 4th core book would be appropriate, one with all the background numbers and justifications behind the 3E system, so that players could remodel the game to their needs but not break the game in doing so. It appears that he sees calibratable D&D as a fine design goal as well.

On Magic Levels: The proposals that I've seen, to date, do not inspire confidence in me. For your own use, with players you know will go along with your changes, this is fine. If you try to push it beyond your table, then I expect that you will run into stiff resistance from the larger community of D&D players.

This wouldn't be a problem if the ruleset had been designed to be calibratable beyond window dressing like adding new feats and prestige classes. He's never going to be able to push it beyond his table this edition, because the rules are written. Modular, calibratable D&D is a worthy goal for 4E, though. It would de-emphasise the "one true way to play" writ into the core rules of the current ruleset, and instead play up the pulp fantasy toolkit aspect of the game, which is the way people play in their own worlds anyway. Rare is the game that doesn't tweak the system somehow; why not make the system jive with that?

WotC didn't calibrate D&D to be a high-magic game on a whim; WotC did so because they discerned through market research that this is what Joe Gamer wants when he plays D&D. The commercial appeal of low-magic D&D is, well, low. If that's cool with you, that's cool with me and we can all thwop orcs happily.

If 4E is easily adaptable for different styles of play and built with such goals in mind, including something as obvious as "high magic" or "low magic" style play, you wouldn't have to go around discouraging people for rocking the boat by hinting that what they want isn't commercially viable, and indeed the orc thwopping could commence in earnest.
 
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On Magic Levels: The proposals that I've seen, to date, do not inspire confidence in me.

And what do you dislike about them? For instance, I can understand not wanting to introduce lots of new complexity, or not wanting an ambiguous, difficult-to-adjudicate system, but what's your complaint with all the proposals?

For your own use, with players you know will go along with your changes, this is fine. If you try to push it beyond your table, then I expect that you will run into stiff resistance from the larger community of D&D players.

The main point of this thread, repeated more than once, was that this was not an attempt to take over D&D and force "low magic" on the "high magic" infidels.

WotC didn't calibrate D&D to be a high-magic game on a whim; WotC did so because they discerned through market research that this is what Joe Gamer wants when he plays D&D.

Wizards of the Coast did many, many things simply because that's the way they've always been done. If you were worried about sacred cows, would you move Magic Missile to 2nd or 3rd level, or Fireball to 4th level? I didn't think so.
 

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