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Too much magic in DnD - Lets fo something about it 2.
- Thread starter bramadan
- Start date
Luscious Mageris
First Post
Implement House Rules
This is a real concern for some of us old school DMs. I have noticed that players skyrocket up in levels quickly and begin manufacturing their own magic items almost immediately. I implemented certain restrictions on creating magic items for my players. I doubled the costs in general and require a successful check vs. a DC dependent on the power of the item. I think this is essential to managing your campaign and keeping the players interested in the long haul. It is good to know that I am not alone in my opinion on this issue.
This is a real concern for some of us old school DMs. I have noticed that players skyrocket up in levels quickly and begin manufacturing their own magic items almost immediately. I implemented certain restrictions on creating magic items for my players. I doubled the costs in general and require a successful check vs. a DC dependent on the power of the item. I think this is essential to managing your campaign and keeping the players interested in the long haul. It is good to know that I am not alone in my opinion on this issue.
The suggestion to building a low-magic D&D-like system was appealing to me at first, but most propositions I've read in the last few pages requires so much restructuration of the game that I'm not interested anymore.
Is there anyone out there who would like a simple low-magic D&D ?
Rebuild the spellcasting classes ? Random charts for spellcasting ? 15th level fighter blowing the local baronny ? What are you people talking about ???
There is one thing that I strongly believe that most people here get wrong. "mysterious", "grim-n-gritty", "unpredictable" is all in the eye of the beholder. If the spellcaster can't even predict himself what outcome will his own spells have, then I believe you're better off with a no-magic D&D, not a low-magic D&D.
Do you know the definition of "esoterism" ? It's a science kept secret from the normal populace, it's protected secrets. Magic has to be reliable to be viable and to exists. If it's not, then why the heck would there be spellcasters ???
IMO, a low-magic campaign has a deterministic, non-flashy and reliable magic system, but nobody in the populace (i.e. among the NPC and the non-spellcasting PCs) has any idea of how magic works and what it is.
From the game system point of view, all you need to do is revise the spell-casting classes spell list and to find a way to balance the mundane classes from the lost of magic item use. One simple way is to use a simple and detreministic "taxing" system for spellcasters, like subdual damage or ability damage or the like. Backfires and wildmagic is a (sorry for the rudeness) stupid idea.
There is at least two way to intepret the expression "low-magic". One way is by having few spellcasters, few magic item and few magical knowledge among the common people, the other is by designing underpowered spellcasting classes. One way or another, we blow fireball and magic missile from the spell list.
I prefer the former.
Is there anyone out there who would like a simple low-magic D&D ?
Rebuild the spellcasting classes ? Random charts for spellcasting ? 15th level fighter blowing the local baronny ? What are you people talking about ???
There is one thing that I strongly believe that most people here get wrong. "mysterious", "grim-n-gritty", "unpredictable" is all in the eye of the beholder. If the spellcaster can't even predict himself what outcome will his own spells have, then I believe you're better off with a no-magic D&D, not a low-magic D&D.
Do you know the definition of "esoterism" ? It's a science kept secret from the normal populace, it's protected secrets. Magic has to be reliable to be viable and to exists. If it's not, then why the heck would there be spellcasters ???
IMO, a low-magic campaign has a deterministic, non-flashy and reliable magic system, but nobody in the populace (i.e. among the NPC and the non-spellcasting PCs) has any idea of how magic works and what it is.
From the game system point of view, all you need to do is revise the spell-casting classes spell list and to find a way to balance the mundane classes from the lost of magic item use. One simple way is to use a simple and detreministic "taxing" system for spellcasters, like subdual damage or ability damage or the like. Backfires and wildmagic is a (sorry for the rudeness) stupid idea.
There is at least two way to intepret the expression "low-magic". One way is by having few spellcasters, few magic item and few magical knowledge among the common people, the other is by designing underpowered spellcasting classes. One way or another, we blow fireball and magic missile from the spell list.
I prefer the former.
I can only speak for myself!Bonedagger
First Post
If magic is getting out of hand only the DM is to blame. He can, after all, restrict the knowledge needed to make certain items or limit what the players can create of magical items because of time pressure. The resources for a special wand might also require a special material that need to be ordered or found.
"The skin from a.. displaced beast? Oh. A Displacer Beast.... Uhm no. I'm pretty sure we don't have that."
"The skin from a.. displaced beast? Oh. A Displacer Beast.... Uhm no. I'm pretty sure we don't have that."
Last edited:
Desdichado
Hero
Well, that's kinda relative, don't you think? A big complaint from some on the thread, and from many on D&D in general, is that the default magic system is silly. If you believe that, then nothing less than a complete overhaul of magic in D&D will fit. Luckily, in my opinion, even that can be simple as we now have The Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game and Star Wars as d20 games. Me, I'm gonna take the Force Adept and a slightly modified Jedi Consular (replace the lightsaber with some other ability) and make them my new magic classes. I'll also delete the classes that have minor spell-casting abilities and replace them with WoT classes like the Woodsman. Even that's quite the overhaul, but it's simple and I don't have to actually write anything new, and I have the benefit of knowing that it's balanced (the Soldier and Armsman classes from Star Wars and WoT respectively are almost identical to the fighter, so the balance calibration is the same, assuming you don't do the D&D wealth, magic items, exp., etc. default progression.)
I agree: that's too much work. I don't mind radical overhauls in my game, but really only if I can steal from something else.
Mysterious, grim-n-gritty and unpredictable are three different things, and I don't think everyone who wants low magic wants them all. I like mysterious and grim-n-gritty, but the only unpredictability I want is this: can the spellcaster succeed in the skill check to make the power come off (ala Star Wars.
Hate to intrude on your beautiful theory here, but historically there have always been people who studied esoteric "sciences" like alchemy and magic. And all of that in a reality in which magic doesn't work (at least that's my belief!
) So I don't really see what your gripe is, unless you mean from a player's point of view.Fine. Obviously there are other points of view in this thread. For the most part, I agree with you, though. I doubt Harry Potter would, to use one rather well-known example.
It's even simpler than that: don't rebalance the other classes at all; just rebalance the spell-casting classes. You just have to be aware that the CRs (which I don't believe are more than a rough "swag" anyway) will be misleading if you do this.
I think your distinctions are artificial. If you do the former, without changing the spell-casting classes, then the other classes are no longer balanced against the spell-casters. In a way, you have the opposite effect: spell-casters become even more powerful relative to everyone else.
Bastoche said:
Haven't read all of the previous thread, but I have done quite a bit of thinking on this before, and here's my current favorite:
1) no more than half your character levels can be spellcaster levels
2) all prices and XP costs for magic items and services double
Simple, easy to adjudicate, and balanced. Note that you need 1) is equivalent to rebuilding the caster classes to slow down the spell progression, except *much* cleaner. And if you do 1), you need 2) to keep everything in balance.
You can add in further refinements to this scheme, e.g say that a Bard level only counts for 1/2 a caster level (so a Bard2/Rogue1 would be fine), Ranger levels start to count as 1/2 caster level after 4th level (when they start getting spells), etc. But the main idea is about as simple as you can get.
