Tools for sandbox style exploration?

[harpy]

Yeah, unfortunately the narrativist approach kind of blows up the sense of discovery that the simulationist approach is trying to achieve.

Mighty Empires was suggested on another forum. That's definitely more in line with what I was imagining.

The problem with Mighty Empires is that it doesn't have any real detail and in all of my previous experience with using ME tiles, finding the one you want takes forever.

I guess what I want doesn't exist yet.

More precisely:

The detail of the old Middle Earth Role Playing maps, with hand drawn hills and mountains, rivers etc, but scattered about are little townships, bridges, ancient barrows, etc. Essentially I want players to have to study the map, not just glance at it and that a huge part of the story and roleplaying will come from careful attention to the map.

Going the electronic route you could pull this stuff off with the various rpg packages out there. I could set up my projector to do it, but unfortunately it isn't one of those fancy ones that can throw a large image at a short distance.

As with most gaming desires of mine, the answer lies in 4'x6' LCD spill proof gaming table with 4000x3000 resolution.

I think for right now I'll have to aim for the experience I had when I was younger. You don't get a map that unfolds like you're playing Civilization, instead the DM hands out a map that the players get which has all of the details and clues baked into it and then hope that the players care enough to study it and want to explore the environs.

You then break up the world into a series of maps that the players get to collect, along with some other maps that are "zoomed out" so that they can see several maps together, along with other details they didn't pick up on before. The one benefit there is that you can have a little more narrative control over the story by using the maps to nudge the players a little towards some items.

The Judges' Guild Wilderlands of High Fantasy that was suggested to me is in a lot of ways exactly what I want in terms of raw data to draw upon, but what I'd love to see is a big binder of handout maps that goes along with it as a supplement.

I can do all the map making, I'd even enjoy it, but it's the time factor. Getting too old and busy to pour the time into the project, so having an extensive handout game aid is ultimately what I'm after.

 

[Woas]

Well, I don't know what the latest meaning to sandbox is around here now-a-days, but for me when I ran my 'sandbox' game I did the following:

Grabbed two large pieces of paper. I'm not sure of the exact dimension unfortunately but I will estimate it was roughly 20"x16" (so about 4 pieces of 8x10).

On one piece I drew a lovely hand drawn map of a large island with all sorts of neat locales. On the second piece I took a black crayon and colored the whole thing black. I paperclipped the black over the map as Terra Incognito, ripping off a small section near the bottom where the characters were located and 'knew' about. The characters were to explore the island and as they did I would rip off the black cover to reveal the map.


But I like the idea of the Carcassonne tiles. Or even mixing them with Settler of Catan tiles too since they are set up with geographical features...

 

[the Jester]

How does this sound:

The dm and the players each start with a sheet of hex paper, agreeing in advance that 1 hex is the same scale on both maps. The dm has a little bit mapped out at the start; the pcs must map as they go (perhaps exploring a new continent or some such?), using their skills to avoid mis-mapping and/or getting lost. Use the wilderness exploration rules in the 1e DMG for determining what is in unknown hexes; those rules are fun and can lead to lots of interesting places, encounters and so forth.

 

[Umbran]

One thing that I've only experience once, and only in limited manner, was to be able to explore a world and have the geography unfold for me in a way that evokes the exploration of computer strategy games, like Civilization.

Well, here's something to think about.

The computer strategy games are just that - strategy games. They work on a strategic scale - both in space and time. The maps and action are on that scale. Most RPGs are more tactical in nature. Movement and action are on the tactical scale. That provides a mismatch.

I think the strategic map exploration is cool in strategy games, largely because that's also the scale on which you act. Once you explore it, then you do things with it - build cities, attack enemies, and so on.

In an RPG, generally speaking the only thing the PCs do on a strategic scale is movement. So, all they really ever get to do on the strategic map is move, reveal a hex, move again, and so forth. That process itself may not be so interesting for the players.

I like Woas's approach - it is a preset thing you can easily bring out on the occasion that they are doing that strategic scale movement, and it is stylistically appropriate.

In the past, I've used a variety of map sets to give players some sense of discovery. The initial map they get represents sort of the 'common knowledge' version of the world, that can be gotten if you just ask the people around and about for a day or two. Distances and positions are vague, there are few details, and likely to be many inaccuracies. Information close to their starting point is apt to be more accurate than that far away.
When the players get into a specific area, they get another map representing that area, with more detail, and more accuracy on its scale.

So, the players might have a large-scale map of Europe, and then a separate map of each of the countries in Europe they've visited. The smaller maps are not made to line up exactly like puzzle pieces, so the questions of travel times on the large map are preserved, while they still have better information on local travel.

 

[Raven Crowking]

In an RPG, generally speaking the only thing the PCs do on a strategic scale is movement. So, all they really ever get to do on the strategic map is move, reveal a hex, move again, and so forth. That process itself may not be so interesting for the players.

A sandbox can easily handle stategic scale PC decisions, where the tactical scale is used to resolve necessary conflicts toward bringing about the strategic-level design. If you examine the 1e DMG or the Rules Compendium version of D&D, both of these books offer some support for this type of higher-level play.

In the past, I've used a variety of map sets to give players some sense of discovery. The initial map they get represents sort of the 'common knowledge' version of the world, that can be gotten if you just ask the people around and about for a day or two. Distances and positions are vague, there are few details, and likely to be many inaccuracies. Information close to their starting point is apt to be more accurate than that far away.
When the players get into a specific area, they get another map representing that area, with more detail, and more accuracy on its scale.

This is a good way to go.

Another thing you might consider is making a big DM's map with lots of sites, lots of details, and lots of lairs.....and figure out ways that they interconnect, so that learning about Site A gives you insight into Site C, and something in Lair Z connects back to Village R.

Good examples of how to do this can be found by examining "big" modules like Rappan Athuk Reloaded and The Lost City of Barakus. The interplay of faith, history, and political powers is part of what makes The Village of Hommlet interesting.....it is useful for a sandbox DM to know who thier NPCs are beholden to once the PCs start meddling.

I would also recommend getting a book like The Dictionary of Imaginary Places and/or A Magical Atlas of Great Britian, and make liberal use of the entries therein.

Features in the landscape are not just interesting in and of themselves; they are interesting when they relate to other things. When they learn that the faces carved on the Brandonburg Cliffs turn out to be the kings buried in Allmen's Howe, it is difficult for players to not feel a sense of discovery. Especially if they learn that midway between the two, a great treasure was buried long ago........where a town now stands.

Perhaps there are still dungeons beneath the town, if only access could be gained? And is that treasure unguarded now, as it has been sealed up long ago? So long as the answers make sense, and are not automatically "all long-sealed places are rife with undead!" players should get a real sense of accomplishment and discovery from putting clues in the landscape together to their benefit.

Likewise, when placing mummies, vampires, or other undead, consider carefully what conditions were like when they lived, and what they might know that the PCs do not. A real sense of discover requires a real sense of history.

IMHO, anyway.


RC

 

[Ydars]

One of the greatest accounts of a sandbox game is the Westmarch on Ars Ludi. You can find it here

ars ludi » Grand Experiments: West Marches

If you want to run this kind of game there are oodles of good advice there.

 

[weem]

One of the greatest accounts of a sandbox game is the Westmarch on Ars Ludi. You can find it here

ars ludi » Grand Experiments: West Marches

If you want to run this kind of game there are oodles of good advice there.

Yes, toss another vote in on this one if you haven't checked it out yet I forgot about it. Very inspiring though for a sandbox game... made me want to run one right then, hehe.

Maybe next time though.

 

[Ydars]

You can also find a random map generator here

www.Gozzy's.com - Random Dungeon Map Creator

Other pages on the same site create random wilderness maps and caves.

 

[Raven Crowking]

One of the greatest accounts of a sandbox game is the Westmarch on Ars Ludi. You can find it here

ars ludi » Grand Experiments: West Marches

If you want to run this kind of game there are oodles of good advice there.

I could not approve more!

Xp to you!


EDIT: Dang! "You must spread some XP around before giving it Ydars again".

 

[harpy]

One of the greatest accounts of a sandbox game is the Westmarch on Ars Ludi. You can find it here

ars ludi » Grand Experiments: West Marches

If you want to run this kind of game there are oodles of good advice there.

WOW! "I'd by that for a dollar!" That's exactly the kind of game I'd want to run, where the DM is passive, the world is there to be explored, and it's up to the players to sort out where things are and keep maps and records.

What I really like though is that West Marches fits well with using an E6/E8/E10 game also. Hem in the vast world that needs to be created and focus on a manageable progression and area of play, but mostly to give a tight context to the entire game.

I was scanning over the website, but has anyone published a "West Marches" campaign? I'd love to pour hours, days and weeks into building up a West Marches world to explore, but time keeps slipping away. I'd happily pay for a pre-packaged WM campaign with all the tables, CRs, locations and whatnot worked out.