Torrent throwdown on the Wizards board

[The Little Raven]

...and your point is entirely irrelevant here.

Not really. Your post basically states "We shouldn't really spend the time, money, and energy to prevent something that we can't prevent." I disagree with that statement.

First of all, as someone who has lost a good friend to murder, even if it was many years ago, the comparison of software piracy to murder is simply outrageous.

You want a medal for having lost a friend to murder? Get me two while you're at it. The point remains the same: just because things can't be prevented doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Second, you're wrong: to a large degree, a society that wants to stop murders from occurring can do so. That discussion is for another board entirely, however, as it comes down to politics.

I'll believe that when I see a society that is free of murder.

Third, I stand by my statement: if WotC put everyone in the company on stopping the piracy of game products, they would not be able to curtail the process one bit.

Why would they put everyone in the company on it? Why would game designers be put on a piracy prevention taskforce?

They wouldn't. They'd hire people who do this kind of thing for a living. Just like I don't go and try to prevent the piracy of my company's computer games, but we do have lawyers that do that kind of thing.

So I'll just say it clearly (and, remember, this is just my opinion, mkay?) every dollar a company like WotC spends trying to root out and stop piracy is one dollar they don't spend creating and marketing their products, and that's a waste.

It's a waste to you. Working for a company that rigorously protects it's IP, I can tell you that it is money well spent in many cases.

I don't mean to be a jerk, and I don't support piracy (I've had the books on preorder since February!) but nothing we do here is going to affect the situation in the slightest.

The number one problem with trying to solve problems with our society? This exact attitude.

 

[greatn]

Now I've already bought and paid for 4e. I even bought it in a local gaming store at full price, $100 for all three books.

So would it be wrong for me to sneak a peek? My money has already gone through to the people who deserve it, and there's no way I'm canceling my reserve.

 

[Novem5er]

I can think of a few ways that WotC could make the physical products (or official PDFs) more attractive.

One, since they are combining physical products with an online service, why not print books with a unique serial code that can then be used to get additional online services/goods.

For instance, what if each DMG had a unique keycode to unlock the online Encounter Builder? What if each PHB had a unique code to unlock the Character Generator? What if each MM had a unique code that would (gasp!) unlock monster tokens of (double-gasp!) free virtual minis for the Game Table?

By putting all these services behind a password protected User Account (DDI), WotC can tie the keycodes to that account. Any pirated or borrowed books would not allow those users to access that online service b/c the keycode will have already been activated by a DDI subscriber.

Yes, people will still pirate the books, but there will be ADDED incentive NOT to.

The problem with this model is that it's hard to charge a customer TWICE for something: 1) for purchasing the book, 2) monthly subscription to use DDI tools.

They could fix this by still requiring a registered DDI account to activate the now "free" services that come with purchasing a book, but still having an "advanced" DDI with extra features for a monthly fee.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

Now I've already bought and paid for 4e. I even bought it in a local gaming store at full price, $100 for all three books.

So would it be wrong for me to sneak a peek? My money has already gone through to the people who deserve it, and there's no way I'm canceling my reserve.

Yes, it would be wrong.

 

[malraux]

Even for the person talking about his laser printer. You're seriously going to print 750 pages, with lots of full color photos? How much do you laser jet cartridges cost? I can't imagine that your actually doing yourself any favors.

As I said, mine is B/W but a cartridge is about 1 cent per page. With big graphics, it'll be worse, but still not too bad. Good paper is about 2 cents a sheet, so about 1 per page. So for a B/W copy, probably around 7.50 on paper, maybe 15 on toner, then a few bucks on binders. So probably around 25 total. Of course, that's the price for B/W binder copies.

 

[greatn]

I can think of a few ways that WotC could make the physical products (or official PDFs) more attractive.

One, since they are combining physical products with an online service, why not print books with a unique serial code that can then be used to get additional online services/goods.

For instance, what if each DMG had a unique keycode to unlock the online Encounter Builder? What if each PHB had a unique code to unlock the Character Generator? What if each MM had a unique code that would (gasp!) unlock monster tokens of (double-gasp!) free virtual minis for the Game Table?

By putting all these services behind a password protected User Account (DDI), WotC can tie the keycodes to that account. Any pirated or borrowed books would not allow those users to access that online service b/c the keycode will have already been activated by a DDI subscriber.

Yes, people will still pirate the books, but there will be ADDED incentive NOT to.

The problem with this model is that it's hard to charge a customer TWICE for something: 1) for purchasing the book, 2) monthly subscription to use DDI tools.

They could fix this by still requiring a registered DDI account to activate the now "free" services that come with purchasing a book, but still having an "advanced" DDI with extra features for a monthly fee.

You could just walk into a store, open the book and memorize or copy down or put the code in your cell phone.

 

[Novem5er]

I'm sure clever packaging could at least reduce that to an acceptable number. I've found a few packs of D&D miniatures cut open and the rare removed, but so far only 1 or 2 packs out of many dozens that I've seen on shelves.

Physical theft (or tampering) has always been a concern.

 

[JohnSnow]

I said it there and I'll say it here. It doesn't matter whether it equates to lost sales or not.

Distributing content from a work you don't own the rights to is copyright infringement. And it's illegal.

Acquiring a copy of something illegally is equivalent under the law to buying stolen property or even actually stealing. It's exactly the same as people who steal, for example, cable television.

I own a cable company. We have to deal with signal theft all the time. And we've learned the fix. Scott Rouse, if you're listening, pay attention:

Go after the perpetrators. Yes, that means everyone who obtains an illegal copy. Prosecute them. Start with the people who brag about it on internet message boards. Stop worrying about alienating your customers, because people stealing your product are not your customers.

Get the names of the distributors, and go after them too. Make them financially liable for reimbursing the company for every single copy they illegally distributed, or just set a reasonable minimum estimate of, say, 1000 copies.

Would people still do this if they faced a potential $40,000 fine? I doubt it. Heck, I doubt most people would risk it if the fine was a measily $4,000.

Would anyone be on the high moral crusade for free information if there were actually consequences for their actions? I seriously doubt it. However, if anyone kept going, I'd actually respect them.

Civil disobedience is only truly civil disobedience if you're willing to suffer the repercussions of it.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

I said it there and I'll say it here. It doesn't matter whether it equates to lost sales or not.

Distributing content from a work you don't own the rights to is copyright infringement. And it's illegal.

Acquiring a copy of something illegally is equivalent under the law to buying stolen property or even actually stealing. It's exactly the same as people who steal, for example, cable television.

I own a cable company. We know the fix. Go after the perpetrators. Yes, that means everyone who obtains an illegal copy. Prosecute them. Stop worrying about alienating your customers, because people stealing your product are not your customers.

Get the names of the distributors, and go after them. Make them financially liable for reimbursing the company for every single copy they illegally distributed, or just set a reasonable minimum estimate of, say, 1000 copies.

Would people still do this if they faced a potential $40,000 fine? I doubt it. Heck, I doubt most people would risk it if the fine was a measily $4,000.

Would anyone be on the high moral crusade if there were actually consequences for their actions? I seriously doubt it. However, if anyone kept going, I'd actually respect them.

Civil disobedience is only truly civil disobedience if you're willing to suffer the repercussions.

This.

 

[Novem5er]

Distributing content from a work you don't own the rights to is copyright infringement. And it's illegal.

What does "distributing content" actually mean, though? Where is the line drawn. Obviously, the answer to this is going to be very different for different industries.

You can't "share" cable with your neighbor. But are we not allowed to "share" our D&D books with our players? What does distribution mean? Verbatim recitation? Temporary visual access? What happens when someone looks at a book they didn't buy, and memorizes the information therein? Isn't that distribution of content?

I seriously think that this is a fuzzy area of morality and I think publishers across all industries have been very successful in defining the publics thoughts by means of lobbying and legislation. I think there is a valid argument to be held for copyright laws regarding "information" and "product".

But I will admit that this is not necessarily the forum to have that argument.