Torturing PCs for Info
- Thread starter iwatt
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CCamfield
First Post
Or use the Philip Reed's magic-consuming PrC (Eaters of the Arcane?) and have them absorb the energy of the PC's own items. 
But that doesn't help in a modern context unless there's magic. I agree with Kahuna that torture is something that is probably best stayed away from, although being rescued just as the torture begins or just before cracking is good...
But that doesn't help in a modern context unless there's magic. I agree with Kahuna that torture is something that is probably best stayed away from, although being rescued just as the torture begins or just before cracking is good...
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iwatt
First Post
Kahuna Burger said:
Probably i'll use the Fort saves to resist the Con damage. I'm leaning towards Will saves versus a DC set up by the Torturers Intimidate score. I don't really want to stretch the torture scenes too much though. If he misses his first Will save, he has to answer some questions. He'll probably lie, so I'll probably apply cumulative penalties on his bluff rolls.
I won't use CIA techniques, because the Gestapo tended to brutality, not subtleness (sp?).
seasong
First Post
Here's the rules I'd use 
Intimidate: the first roll. Only rolled once - it determines how good an impression the torturer makes on the mind of the victim, and how effective later techniques will be. A botched roll basically means "get a new torturer", unless that simply isn't an option.
The Intimidate roll is the period of time leading up to the actual torture. The torturer may leave the victim tied up for an hour or two (or all day), put on a big show of preparing the implements (and then break for lunch
), or even chat with the victim ("So, you and I know what's about to happen, but why let that stand in the way of my gloating?"). The roll sets the DC for the victim's Fort or Will save (whichever is better - tough people know they can tough it out; and tough-minded people are less likely to be impressed in general).
Some basic modifiers:
Improvised workspace: -2
Adequate torture chamber: +0
Masterwork torture chamber: +2
Less than an hour spent on intimidation: -2
1-3 hours: +0
All day: +2 (more than one day does not noticeably affect results)
Torturer is a size or more larger than the victim: +2
Torturer is smaller than the victim: -2
Torturer has something of value to the victim: +2
Torturer has 5 levels of bluff: +2 synergy bonus
Torturer is willing to let victim die: +2
Victim is willing to die: -2
(note: for PCs, just ask them "So... just so we're clear, if it comes down to the wire, would you rather break down and give up the piddling little info, or die?")
(note2: with raise dead and similar, death may not be a bad option. That makes it really tough on torturers, but them's the breaks in a fantasy setting)
Results
If the victim fails their save by 10 or more: +4 on all subsequent checks!
If the victim fails their save: +2.
If the victim makes their save: +0
If the victim makes their save by 10 or more: -2.
Once you've established the first impression, it comes down to what results you want, and how you want to get them.
Getting Answers
Pain: Each hour, the torturer makes a Profession (Torturer) check. The victim makes a Fort save against the skill check. If the torturer succeeds, the victim will say something, anything, to make the pain stop. See "Talking", below.
Interrogation: Each hour, the torturer makes a Profession (Torturer) check. The victim makes a Will save against the skill check, OR chooses to remain silent. Remaining silent is fine, which is why torturers will want to occasionally shift to "Punishment" instead, below. If the victim fails the Will save, something slips out. See "Talking", below.
Talking
In general, a victim will try to lie first, and only tell the truth if that doesn't work. A victim who consistently and constantly lies will probably proceed to "Punishment", below, if the torturer figures it out.
Each time the victim lies, this requires a Bluff vs Sense Motive check. If the victim is talking because he failed a save, the Bluff check is at -8. A victim who makes their save can choose to talk anyway, in which case there is no penalty to the Bluff check.
There is a cumulative -1 to the Bluff check for each hour of torture. A new torturer resets this value.
If there is a modifier due to how well the initial intimidation went, it is applied to the torturer's Sense Motive check.
Special: If the torturer's Sense Motive check beats the victim's Bluff check by 10 or more, the torturer figured out some of the truth despite the victim's best intentions.
Punishment
An hour of punishment requires a Profession (Torturer) check against DC 15. On a success, it does subdual damage equal to 1/4th the victim's hit points, and forces the victim to make a Will save against a DC equal to the torture check. Each hour of punishment gives a cumulative +1 to the save DC - this resets if the punishment does not immediately resume when the victim wakes up, but otherwise continues accumulating.
If the victim fails the save, the torturer can specify a single, highly specific action which the victim can NOT do. This is similar to a suggestion. The usual technique is to state "do not lie to THIS question". The victim gets a new save each day to throw off the effects of the command.
Instead of a command, the torturer can elect to lower the victim's Fort and Will saves by 1, instead. This lasts until the victim has had a full day of rest for each -1 to Fort and Will saves the torturer has inflicted.
Slow Kill
The torturer makes a Profession (Torture) check. The better the check, the longer it takes.
under DC 10: oops, killed him.
DC 10: 1 minute per CON point.
DC 15: 10 minutes per CON point.
DC 20: 1 hour per CON point.
DC 25: 8 hours per CON point.
The above is probably only useful if you have some additional rule, like a feat that allows you to harvest 1 XP per 10 minutes from a dying torture victim.
There could probably be more detail, but that's generally sufficient for me.
-seasong
Intimidate: the first roll. Only rolled once - it determines how good an impression the torturer makes on the mind of the victim, and how effective later techniques will be. A botched roll basically means "get a new torturer", unless that simply isn't an option.
The Intimidate roll is the period of time leading up to the actual torture. The torturer may leave the victim tied up for an hour or two (or all day), put on a big show of preparing the implements (and then break for lunch
), or even chat with the victim ("So, you and I know what's about to happen, but why let that stand in the way of my gloating?"). The roll sets the DC for the victim's Fort or Will save (whichever is better - tough people know they can tough it out; and tough-minded people are less likely to be impressed in general).Some basic modifiers:
Improvised workspace: -2
Adequate torture chamber: +0
Masterwork torture chamber: +2
Less than an hour spent on intimidation: -2
1-3 hours: +0
All day: +2 (more than one day does not noticeably affect results)
Torturer is a size or more larger than the victim: +2
Torturer is smaller than the victim: -2
Torturer has something of value to the victim: +2
Torturer has 5 levels of bluff: +2 synergy bonus
Torturer is willing to let victim die: +2
Victim is willing to die: -2
(note: for PCs, just ask them "So... just so we're clear, if it comes down to the wire, would you rather break down and give up the piddling little info, or die?")
(note2: with raise dead and similar, death may not be a bad option. That makes it really tough on torturers, but them's the breaks in a fantasy setting)
Results
If the victim fails their save by 10 or more: +4 on all subsequent checks!
If the victim fails their save: +2.
If the victim makes their save: +0
If the victim makes their save by 10 or more: -2.
Once you've established the first impression, it comes down to what results you want, and how you want to get them.
Getting Answers
Pain: Each hour, the torturer makes a Profession (Torturer) check. The victim makes a Fort save against the skill check. If the torturer succeeds, the victim will say something, anything, to make the pain stop. See "Talking", below.
Interrogation: Each hour, the torturer makes a Profession (Torturer) check. The victim makes a Will save against the skill check, OR chooses to remain silent. Remaining silent is fine, which is why torturers will want to occasionally shift to "Punishment" instead, below. If the victim fails the Will save, something slips out. See "Talking", below.
Talking
In general, a victim will try to lie first, and only tell the truth if that doesn't work. A victim who consistently and constantly lies will probably proceed to "Punishment", below, if the torturer figures it out.
Each time the victim lies, this requires a Bluff vs Sense Motive check. If the victim is talking because he failed a save, the Bluff check is at -8. A victim who makes their save can choose to talk anyway, in which case there is no penalty to the Bluff check.
There is a cumulative -1 to the Bluff check for each hour of torture. A new torturer resets this value.
If there is a modifier due to how well the initial intimidation went, it is applied to the torturer's Sense Motive check.
Special: If the torturer's Sense Motive check beats the victim's Bluff check by 10 or more, the torturer figured out some of the truth despite the victim's best intentions.
Punishment
An hour of punishment requires a Profession (Torturer) check against DC 15. On a success, it does subdual damage equal to 1/4th the victim's hit points, and forces the victim to make a Will save against a DC equal to the torture check. Each hour of punishment gives a cumulative +1 to the save DC - this resets if the punishment does not immediately resume when the victim wakes up, but otherwise continues accumulating.
If the victim fails the save, the torturer can specify a single, highly specific action which the victim can NOT do. This is similar to a suggestion. The usual technique is to state "do not lie to THIS question". The victim gets a new save each day to throw off the effects of the command.
Instead of a command, the torturer can elect to lower the victim's Fort and Will saves by 1, instead. This lasts until the victim has had a full day of rest for each -1 to Fort and Will saves the torturer has inflicted.
Slow Kill
The torturer makes a Profession (Torture) check. The better the check, the longer it takes.
under DC 10: oops, killed him.
DC 10: 1 minute per CON point.
DC 15: 10 minutes per CON point.
DC 20: 1 hour per CON point.
DC 25: 8 hours per CON point.
The above is probably only useful if you have some additional rule, like a feat that allows you to harvest 1 XP per 10 minutes from a dying torture victim.
There could probably be more detail, but that's generally sufficient for me
.-seasong
Kahuna Burger
First Post
Seasong, Your ideas seem to be pretty comprehensive, but they seem to assume total control on the torturers part of how badly the victim is hurt. It is certainly possible for a tourturer to inadvertently kill his victim prior to getting what he wants (esp in the punishment phase). Perhaps occasional heal checks would be in order, esp when the tourture is "makeshift".
The second issue that isn't covered is that while there's a bluff/sense motive check when the victim lies, it seems assumed that the tourturer will automaticly believe the truth. Aside from just "hurting people" my impression has been that most tourture is actually to get a specific confession, not 'accurate info'. Even if the tourturer sincearly wants the truth, his bias and suspicions are going to play into things.
Whether this would take the form of a victim on a failed will save being likely to give whatever info the touruter seems to want rather than the truth, or a sense motive check even when the victim is telling the truth, I don't think it can be ignored.
Kahuna Burger
The second issue that isn't covered is that while there's a bluff/sense motive check when the victim lies, it seems assumed that the tourturer will automaticly believe the truth. Aside from just "hurting people" my impression has been that most tourture is actually to get a specific confession, not 'accurate info'. Even if the tourturer sincearly wants the truth, his bias and suspicions are going to play into things.
Whether this would take the form of a victim on a failed will save being likely to give whatever info the touruter seems to want rather than the truth, or a sense motive check even when the victim is telling the truth, I don't think it can be ignored.
Kahuna Burger
seasong
First Post
Most proper tortures are very unlikely to kill a victim unless the victim is already frail in some way. The incidences of accidental death during the Inquisition, for example, was exceedingly low. And this is meant to be heroic on top of that - that's why resistance, although ultimately futile in 99% of cases, allows a heroic character to hold out for days or weeks.Kahuna Burger said:
And yes, the system rounds off the effects of torture. This isn't GURPS
.Actually, something that is really needed is how it works for an unskilled torturer. Who will tend to accidentally kill victims, or threaten something too precious (breaking the mood and hardening the victim), etc. Maybe a flat CHA/WIS check, with more severe penalties for failure and no take 10 option.
Oh no, not at all. In fact, "truth" is more along the lines of "what the torturer is looking for" than "real, honest truth". The victim's Bluff game can be to guess what that is, or try to avoid it while still persuading the torturer that the victim is giving up the truth.
During the Inquisition, for example, the torture would primarily be of the punishment and interrogation variety, with the end goal of persuading the victim to give a plea of Guilt or Not Guilt. It didn't matter which - they just needed to enter it into the records before they could legally finish the peacock court proceedings, kill the victim, and take their stuff.
The best option in that time was to die while still remaining silent, so that your family could inherit your stuff, since you never entered a plea.
-seasong
edit: fixed italics codes
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seasong
First Post
I stated that badlyseasong said:
. What I meant to say was, what "truth" the torturer is looking for is up to the GM, and is the roleplaying side of things. The dice mechanic is just there as a GM tool, not as a comprehensive guide to torture.Summarized, my system is:
1. Intimidate to set the stage.
2. Wear down the victim's resistance, and get answers.
3. Rinse, wash, repeat.
With some options for killing the victim slowly, breaking their will, etc.
MarauderX
Explorer
Um, what about the old hurt them then heal them routine? Y'know, the rogue slashes some tendons in the victim's legs (down to ~0 HP) then the not-so-nice cleric heals him back up. That's been used since OD&D, and don't see why it wouldn't help here. Granted, it lets the victim know that you care enough about him to heal him back up and not let him die, but the shear pain of it all might get a bit annoying to say the least. They sure didn't print that in the CIA torture & questioning handbook.
Kahuna Burger
First Post
MarauderX said:
Actually this makes me wonder if the prevelance of healing magic might make torture less effective in a fantasy setting. (the orriginal request was for a modern game, which is why this wasn't meantioned most likely.) Pain is a warning - you respond to it because your body is programmed to. You can aclimate to constant pain, and even somewhat to sudden pain if it happens enough. If you have a guy who has expereinced being stabbed through the heart, the effective ending of his life multiple times and effectively recovered from it regularly, the hurt and heal scenerio might be nothing to him...
Kahuna burger
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