I am totally confused about the grappling rules. I was talking with Solidsnake and he has come to the conclusion that one gets at most 2 "actions" during a grapple. You can try and control the grapple by making an opposed grapple check, and if that is successful, then you would get one opportunity to do damage.
Here is the way I understand grappling.
P1 initiates grapple - the grapple attack itself provokes an AoO - unless P1 has improved grab or improved grapple [and P2 does not have closequarters fighting] - which is not movement based (therefore mobility would not apply). If P2 deals damage with his AoO from the grapple then P1 fails to initiate the grapple. {First question - why does CQC specifically state that if the AoO deals damage then he can add this to his opposed grapple check? If you deal damage, the grapple is wasted anyway, right?} Once he is successful with his touch attack -look below- he then moves into his opponent's square. If this 5 foot movement winds up opening up an AoO from another opponent then the other opponent can roll the AoO (P1's AC would be modified by mobility as this is a movement based AoO).
P1 has to roll a touch attack to start a grapple. If successful, P1 moves into P2's space and then rolls opposed grapple check with P2 modified by size (+4 to each roll for every size category greater than medium/-4 to each roll for every size category smaller than medium), BAB, and str. If P2 wins opposed roll, P1 is forced back 5' and the grapple ends. If P1 wins he has successfully grappled and can deal damage to his opponent per unarmed attack or weapon that is one size category smaller than he is. If he has not taken a move equivalent action he can then initiate a full attack (assuming he has more than one iterive attacks). If P1 has already initiated a full round attack by already having attacked, he can then use any subsequent attacks left. The grapple counted as his first attack (or whatever attack he was on in his iterive attacks) which did nothing except change the status of the grapple to a hold and deal damage. With each subsequent attack he can either damage his opponent or pin his opponent. If he wants to damage his opponent he makes another opposed grapple check. Now, if I am understanding this correctly, he uses his iterive attack bonus for these opposed rolls. However, his opponent, P2 always uses his BAB - the actual number; not the iterive number. Therefore, this leads to the questionable situation where a 20th level fighter grapples the 15th level fighter and the 15th level fighter wins 2.5 of the attacks on average +15vs.+15, +10vs.+15, +5vs.+15 - this is a gross simplification, I realize - but just consider the example for the point I am trying to get across. Is this supposed to be the way it works to mimic the % chance P1 would harm P2 just considering AC - which is constant?
For these opposed grapple checks to damage the opponent, if P1 wins he can roll damage: either 1d3 sub for an unarmed (assuming not a monk who deals normal monk unarmed dmg) or the dmg appropriate to his weapon. (His weapon must be one size category smaller than P1.) If P2 wins then nothing happens.
If P1 goes for the pin option then he goes through the same procedure he would for trying to damage P2, except if P1 is successful, he has P2 held immobile with regards only to P1. Going with the 20th level fighter, P1 can now automatically damage P2 with his two subsequent iterive attacks that are left (or one if he already attacked once) - however, he can only dmg P2 with unarmed attacks if he is pinning P2. Moreover, other characters have a +4 to hit P2 while P2 is pinned.
Here is my next major question. Grappling is considered an attack. Therefore, if P1 wants to initiate a grapple with his 3rd iterative attack, I am assuming this is ok. The PHB specifically states that while grappling you cannot fight two handed. Two things directly stem from this observation. First, a monk gets much more powerful in this circumstance because he is not prevented from flurrying, meaning the monk is the only character that could get that extra attack while grappling - not to mention the monk gets to use his unarmed attack bonus and those iterive attacks. Second observation is that the PHB does not say anything about fighting with two weapons before initiating the grapple. Thus, it seems that it would be perfectly legitimate to take full attack option:
Attack with offhand weapon first, (if have any of the twf feats - can attack more each with an additional -5). Then attack with main hand which you can make a grapple attack. Or even better if opponent has low str or BAB relative to yours wait for last attack of main hand to be grapple attack because opponent's AC does not matter for this last attack, only BAB and str (and size). This would cause P2 to have to forego anything other than fighting in the grapple next round - because he would have to give up an attack to try and control the grapple or give up a standard action to try and escape.
Therefore, on P2's turn, if he is not pinned he can try to break the grapple, pin P1, or damage P1. If he is pinned, P2 must first try and break the pin before he can do anything else - which can be done by a grapple check or an escape artist check.
So first, if P2 is pinned he can roll an opposed grapple check to break the pin. If he is successful then P1 and P2 are still grappling but P2 is no longer pinned. Note that this would not deal damage to P1. If P2 tries to escape via EA, then he rolls his EA check vs. P1's grapple check. If P2 wins, he is now out of the pin but not out of the grapple. Because the EA check is considered a standard action and not an attack, he must wait until next round before he can try and break the grapple, if that is his goal. He cannot move because he is still grappling. Therefore, rolling an EA check while pinned seems one of the worst possible things to do unless you only have one attack anyway.
If P2 is grappling with P1 - either because he broke a pin or P1 never pinned him to begin with but was successful with his initial grapple check, P2 can then try and damage P1. This would be the exact same as P1 trying to damage P2 except now if P1 wins, nothing happens, and if P2 wins, he gets to deal damage. If P1 wants to try and escape the grapple via EA, he can do that also - assuming he has not already rolled an EA check to break a pin. He can even try to pin P1.
Of course, all of the subsequent things P2 tries to do are using his iterive attacks as well.
A few qualifications: first, if a character is pinned they are considered immobile but not helpless. By immobile, I would assume they mean either no dex bonus or dex = 0. In either case a pinned opponent I think would be subject to SA from either the pinner or other opponents who would have the +4 to their attacks on top of any penalties to the pinned person's AC.
Second, if a third person P3 wants to join a grapple, neither P1 nor P2 get an AoO vs him for either the grapple attempt or the movement because while an opponent is grappling they do not threaten an area. Moreover, P3's initial touch attack is considered automatically successful. He must roll an opposed grapple check vs. either P1 or P2 - whichever is higher - assuming both are enemies.
The initial opposed grapple check is to both successfully initiate the grapple and also deal damage. Succeeding causes both things to happen.
Trying to cast a spell while being grappled requires a Conc check DC = 20 + spell level and cannot have any S components or complex action requirements.
What if a character is pinned? Does that enhance the DC of casting the spell, is spellcasting impossible in that case or does it not matter. Can you cast defensively in this case? When casting do you open up an AoO to your opponent that is in the grapple with you?
You do not get your dex bonus vs opponents not grappling you when you are grappling.
In the PHB it says P3 can try and break a hold by P1 on P2 with a successful opposed grapple check vs P1. Is this breaking a pin or breaking a grapple effectively causing P2 to escape the grapple? If P3 is successful and breaks the "hold" of P1's pin on P2, is P2 free of the grapple or just free of the pin?
As you can see, I need a little help in my understanding of grappling.
Information welcome.
Can P2 aid P3 for this attempt
Here is the way I understand grappling.
P1 initiates grapple - the grapple attack itself provokes an AoO - unless P1 has improved grab or improved grapple [and P2 does not have closequarters fighting] - which is not movement based (therefore mobility would not apply). If P2 deals damage with his AoO from the grapple then P1 fails to initiate the grapple. {First question - why does CQC specifically state that if the AoO deals damage then he can add this to his opposed grapple check? If you deal damage, the grapple is wasted anyway, right?} Once he is successful with his touch attack -look below- he then moves into his opponent's square. If this 5 foot movement winds up opening up an AoO from another opponent then the other opponent can roll the AoO (P1's AC would be modified by mobility as this is a movement based AoO).
P1 has to roll a touch attack to start a grapple. If successful, P1 moves into P2's space and then rolls opposed grapple check with P2 modified by size (+4 to each roll for every size category greater than medium/-4 to each roll for every size category smaller than medium), BAB, and str. If P2 wins opposed roll, P1 is forced back 5' and the grapple ends. If P1 wins he has successfully grappled and can deal damage to his opponent per unarmed attack or weapon that is one size category smaller than he is. If he has not taken a move equivalent action he can then initiate a full attack (assuming he has more than one iterive attacks). If P1 has already initiated a full round attack by already having attacked, he can then use any subsequent attacks left. The grapple counted as his first attack (or whatever attack he was on in his iterive attacks) which did nothing except change the status of the grapple to a hold and deal damage. With each subsequent attack he can either damage his opponent or pin his opponent. If he wants to damage his opponent he makes another opposed grapple check. Now, if I am understanding this correctly, he uses his iterive attack bonus for these opposed rolls. However, his opponent, P2 always uses his BAB - the actual number; not the iterive number. Therefore, this leads to the questionable situation where a 20th level fighter grapples the 15th level fighter and the 15th level fighter wins 2.5 of the attacks on average +15vs.+15, +10vs.+15, +5vs.+15 - this is a gross simplification, I realize - but just consider the example for the point I am trying to get across. Is this supposed to be the way it works to mimic the % chance P1 would harm P2 just considering AC - which is constant?
For these opposed grapple checks to damage the opponent, if P1 wins he can roll damage: either 1d3 sub for an unarmed (assuming not a monk who deals normal monk unarmed dmg) or the dmg appropriate to his weapon. (His weapon must be one size category smaller than P1.) If P2 wins then nothing happens.
If P1 goes for the pin option then he goes through the same procedure he would for trying to damage P2, except if P1 is successful, he has P2 held immobile with regards only to P1. Going with the 20th level fighter, P1 can now automatically damage P2 with his two subsequent iterive attacks that are left (or one if he already attacked once) - however, he can only dmg P2 with unarmed attacks if he is pinning P2. Moreover, other characters have a +4 to hit P2 while P2 is pinned.
Here is my next major question. Grappling is considered an attack. Therefore, if P1 wants to initiate a grapple with his 3rd iterative attack, I am assuming this is ok. The PHB specifically states that while grappling you cannot fight two handed. Two things directly stem from this observation. First, a monk gets much more powerful in this circumstance because he is not prevented from flurrying, meaning the monk is the only character that could get that extra attack while grappling - not to mention the monk gets to use his unarmed attack bonus and those iterive attacks. Second observation is that the PHB does not say anything about fighting with two weapons before initiating the grapple. Thus, it seems that it would be perfectly legitimate to take full attack option:
Attack with offhand weapon first, (if have any of the twf feats - can attack more each with an additional -5). Then attack with main hand which you can make a grapple attack. Or even better if opponent has low str or BAB relative to yours wait for last attack of main hand to be grapple attack because opponent's AC does not matter for this last attack, only BAB and str (and size). This would cause P2 to have to forego anything other than fighting in the grapple next round - because he would have to give up an attack to try and control the grapple or give up a standard action to try and escape.
Therefore, on P2's turn, if he is not pinned he can try to break the grapple, pin P1, or damage P1. If he is pinned, P2 must first try and break the pin before he can do anything else - which can be done by a grapple check or an escape artist check.
So first, if P2 is pinned he can roll an opposed grapple check to break the pin. If he is successful then P1 and P2 are still grappling but P2 is no longer pinned. Note that this would not deal damage to P1. If P2 tries to escape via EA, then he rolls his EA check vs. P1's grapple check. If P2 wins, he is now out of the pin but not out of the grapple. Because the EA check is considered a standard action and not an attack, he must wait until next round before he can try and break the grapple, if that is his goal. He cannot move because he is still grappling. Therefore, rolling an EA check while pinned seems one of the worst possible things to do unless you only have one attack anyway.
If P2 is grappling with P1 - either because he broke a pin or P1 never pinned him to begin with but was successful with his initial grapple check, P2 can then try and damage P1. This would be the exact same as P1 trying to damage P2 except now if P1 wins, nothing happens, and if P2 wins, he gets to deal damage. If P1 wants to try and escape the grapple via EA, he can do that also - assuming he has not already rolled an EA check to break a pin. He can even try to pin P1.
Of course, all of the subsequent things P2 tries to do are using his iterive attacks as well.
A few qualifications: first, if a character is pinned they are considered immobile but not helpless. By immobile, I would assume they mean either no dex bonus or dex = 0. In either case a pinned opponent I think would be subject to SA from either the pinner or other opponents who would have the +4 to their attacks on top of any penalties to the pinned person's AC.
Second, if a third person P3 wants to join a grapple, neither P1 nor P2 get an AoO vs him for either the grapple attempt or the movement because while an opponent is grappling they do not threaten an area. Moreover, P3's initial touch attack is considered automatically successful. He must roll an opposed grapple check vs. either P1 or P2 - whichever is higher - assuming both are enemies.
The initial opposed grapple check is to both successfully initiate the grapple and also deal damage. Succeeding causes both things to happen.
Trying to cast a spell while being grappled requires a Conc check DC = 20 + spell level and cannot have any S components or complex action requirements.
What if a character is pinned? Does that enhance the DC of casting the spell, is spellcasting impossible in that case or does it not matter. Can you cast defensively in this case? When casting do you open up an AoO to your opponent that is in the grapple with you?
You do not get your dex bonus vs opponents not grappling you when you are grappling.
In the PHB it says P3 can try and break a hold by P1 on P2 with a successful opposed grapple check vs P1. Is this breaking a pin or breaking a grapple effectively causing P2 to escape the grapple? If P3 is successful and breaks the "hold" of P1's pin on P2, is P2 free of the grapple or just free of the pin?
As you can see, I need a little help in my understanding of grappling.
Information welcome.
Can P2 aid P3 for this attempt
