Total Defeat without Death

[Lord Zardoz]

I would have to say that the use of some sort of action points does make the most sense, though that does require that you play using action points.

The use of a hostage is somewhat limited. For very low level parties, this could work. For parties who have access to raise dead type magic, it is less effective.

Using subdual damage may work, but it does mean that the combatant is essentially choosing to pull their punches.

About the only other thing that I can think of which may work is allowing the players to be knocked to zero or less, and then having the opponent just walk away rather then CDG them while they lay unconcious. The only complication that I can see here is that for some attacks, you can put a player below -10 quite easily. An 18th level sneak attack on an opponent that has 6 HP, for example. But outside of that, letting the players stabilize or not on their own can work out well enough.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[talien]

About the only other thing that I can think of which may work is allowing the players to be knocked to zero or less, and then having the opponent just walk away rather then CDG them while they lay unconcious. The only complication that I can see here is that for some attacks, you can put a player below -10 quite easily. An 18th level sneak attack on an opponent that has 6 HP, for example. But outside of that, letting the players stabilize or not on their own can work out well enough.

I agree with you. Honestly, it is it a big deal to knock a character to say, -7 instead of just killing them outright? Fights usually tend to be closely matched, and then you've got even more tension as the player hopes they stabilize or someone has to heroically risk their life to get to the other player before he dies.

Nothing quite so depressing as "you failed your save for that lightning bolt...you DIE." All 'cause you didn't roll well that day.

It's very different for higher level characters of course. But to me it just seems ridiculous to kill players without giving them a chance to survive bad die rolls. Or to put it another way, you're absolutely right, D&D tends to be an all or nothing deal and there aren't many mechanics in the core rules (besides the -10 rules) to allow a character to survive a bad situation.

 

[SamhainIA]

if you are using the Complete series "Subdual Substitution" spells and "Merciful" weapons would be my implement of choice, and then go all out, wipe the floor with your PCs dont let on that you are doing subdual damage.
And then, Teach them the lesson, with one or all of their prized items gone, and a note tacked to their chest.

evil DM laugh mwhahahaha.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

And what about Villians?

Another thing comes to mind on this topic, what about villians?

Players are even less forgiving then DM's when it comes to letting defeated opponents continue to draw breath.

What methods make the most sense for DM's who want to get repeated use out of a campaign villian in combat against the players without having to resort to profligate use of Clone or Raise Dead or contingency triggered Teleports? All of those can work for higher level opponents, but what about the lower levels?

I suppose I could implement a house rule granting the players an XP bonus for taking notable NPC villains prisoner and turning them over to the authorities. But that is not so reliable.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[adwyn]

If the players expect the death of one side or the other as the only outcome then don't be suprised when they fight to the death.

Use some simple forshadowing and rumors to present them with the other outcomes you want. If you want the players to acknowledge the rogue is the better then have a lesser opponent do the same to them; mid combat the NPC just takes a step back, bows, and offers up a pretty speech (make it short). Then explain to the PC's that they are honor bound to whatever extent.

Then when the time comes the players will be familiar with some other options and use them.