Touch attack And Unarmed Strike

[Chacal]

I've got a couple of questions about touch attack :

- Are all characters proficient with touch attack ?
- Is it possible for a wizard to select Weapon finesse (touch attack) (assuming he has +1 BAB), or does he have to select WeaponProf(Unarmed) first ?
- Can someone with weapon finesse (Unarmed) use it for a touch attack (that is , using dex for its touch attack, not trying to hurt the opponent and allowing him an AoO)

Chacal

 

[Li Shenron]

- Are all characters proficient with touch attack ?

By the book it seems that Unarmed Strike is a simple weapon, and if you don't have prof. in Simple Weapons (or US specifically) then you would get -4. This unless UStrike is considered "natural weapon", and every creature is proficient with its natural weapons, IIRC. I really think it is not meant this way, and instead everyone IS proficient with Unarmed Strike. You may argue that UStrike is missing from the Wizard prof. on purpose, since it may make sense he is not good in barehand fight, but then it would be missing also from the Rogue list (and maybe even the Monk?). Makes no sense.
Furthermore, Touch Attacks (Touch Spells or Grapple) show no example in the books when the Wiz takes -4. "Touch" is not listed as a weapon, but still you are armed and attacking - you don't provoke AoO* (if it's a spell) and can even make AoOs*.
IIRC in T&B the section about gettin weapon feats with touch spells makes no mention of the need to have taken Simple Weapon Prof.
My conclusion is that you can safely consider anyone proficient with Touch Attacks AND Unarmed Strike, which are basically the same weapon.

*these assume you have cast the spell beforehand

- Is it possible for a wizard to select Weapon finesse (touch attack) (assuming he has +1 BAB), or does he have to select WeaponProf(Unarmed) first ?

If my first answer makes sense, is it possible and useful.

- Can someone with weapon finesse (Unarmed) use it for a touch attack (that is , using dex for its touch attack, not trying to hurt the opponent and allowing him an AoO)

I don't remember exactly what T&B says about combining Unarmed Strike and Touch Spells. IIRC Weapon Finesse (Touch) "looks" different from Weapon Finesse (Unarmed), because in T&B it says WF(TOUCH) and not the other. But considering the rules, again in T&B, about inflicting unarmed damage AND discharging the touch at the same time (with Improved US), i.e. with the same attack, then I am sure they are meant to be exactly the same Weapon Finesse.

 

[Darklone]

Somewhere in the PHB IMHO they write that everyone is proficient with his unarmed and natural attacks.

 

[Forrester]

I just want to know why you add your Strength bonus to touch attacks . Doesn't make a great deal of sense . . .

 

[Li Shenron]

I just want to know why you add your Strength bonus to touch attacks . Doesn't make a great deal of sense . . .

I know. I think it was just chosen for simplicity: all melee attacks use Strength, unless you have Weapon Finesse.

Other games even use Dexterity for ALL attacks, and Strength only for damage.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I've got a couple of questions about touch attack :

- Are all characters proficient with touch attack ?

Essentially, yes. Anyone can make a touch attack when the action they are attempting calls for it. A wizard, for example, that casts Chill Touch uses it by making melee touch attacks against the target. He does not take a -4 non-proficiency penalty to his attack rolls.

- Is it possible for a wizard to select Weapon finesse (touch attack) (assuming he has +1 BAB), or does he have to select WeaponProf(Unarmed) first ?

He does not need to spend a feat to be proficient with his own unarmed strike. I cannot see why he would not be able to spend a feat in order to finesse his melee touch attacks.

- Can someone with weapon finesse (Unarmed) use it for a touch attack (that is , using dex for its touch attack, not trying to hurt the opponent and allowing him an AoO)

No. An unarmed strike is not a touch attack.

Also, your wizard does not provoke an AoO with a touch attack if he is delivering a touch spell anyway.

 

[Chacal]

Thanks for the replies !
I'll probably have a happy wizard player soon

Chacal

 

[Li Shenron]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Can someone with weapon finesse (Unarmed) use it for a touch attack (that is , using dex for its touch attack, not trying to hurt the opponent and allowing him an AoO)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No. An unarmed strike is not a touch attack.

In fact they are not the same thing. But I think Weapon Finesse is the same.

I would have been thinking they were two different WF, but T&B explains that with Improved Unarmed Strike you can discharge a touch spell WHILE making an unarmed attack. That is, you both do unarmed damage AND deliver the spell with the SAME attack roll (which is NOT considered "touch" attack anymore, not even for the discharging part alone). If you had WF for one of the two, but not for the other, what would happen?

Touch is not a weapon, when you do a touch attack to discharge a touch spell, you are using the Unarmed Strike weapon. Well, you COULD rule that WF is specific (it wouldn't be bad), but I think it's not. IIRC, there is a PrCl that lets you discharge a touch spell with a weapon, by doing a touch attack if you want, and I think it uses the WF of the specific weapon.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I would have been thinking they were two different WF, but T&B explains that with Improved Unarmed Strike you can discharge a touch spell WHILE making an unarmed attack. That is, you both do unarmed damage AND deliver the spell with the SAME attack roll (which is NOT considered "touch" attack anymore, not even for the discharging part alone). If you had WF for one of the two, but not for the other, what would happen?

Simple. This is not a touch attack at all, but an unarmed strike. If you have WF (touch), it does not benefit here. WF (unarmed) would allow you to use your Dex instead of Str for the attack bonus.