Touch attack specifics

[TYPO5478]

I'm playing a spell caster (wizard) for the first time, and I've noticed that a significant number of spells have a range of 'touch.' So I started reading about touch attacks. As a wizard, I haven't invested much in Strength; unfortunately, melee touch attacks seem to be no different than regular melee attacks and therefore use Strength (instead of Dex) as the ability modifier. In light of this, a few questions occur. Do you think there is any reason why the rules would require Strength and not Dex as the basis for a melee touch attack (or was that just oversight on the designers' part)? Is there any way besides burning a feat on Weapon Finesse (or getting my DM to house rule it) that I could use my Dex modifier on my melee touch attacks?

On a related note, the section on spell ranges says this:

Touch

You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

However, the section on touch spells in combat says this:

Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

...

Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

The question here is one of choice: are these two sections contradictory, or are we to assume that only charges of touch spells with a single target can be held? Some other option? If they are condradictory, which is the primary source we should go by?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

The conventional wisdom on why STR affects touch attacks (as well as things like whips and rapiers) is that if you automatically made DEX affect to-hits then it would make DEX even more useful than it already is. Making it a feat to be able to sub DEX for STR with a to-hit is a nod for realism and allows for a swashbuckler build to be succesful.

 

[TYPO5478]

So the reason is not that it actually makes any sense to do it that way, but that it might be overpowered if we don't?

I'm not talking about all attack rolls, just touch attacks. They don't happen that often, especially in melee. Touch spells, trip and grapple attacks. Mages need every advantage they can get (what with crappy BAB and stereotypically low Strength scores), and most characters attempting trips and grapples are probably going to have a higher Strength than Dex anyhow.

Why should an incorporeal creature get a bonus to touch attacks from Dex, but a sorceror with an 8 in Strength receive a penalty to the same types of attacks? That's supposed to be balancing? Incorporeal creatures already have that going for them; but if Dex is as big a boon as you say it is, they're getting even further ahead by lacking a Strength score. How does that work out?

A nonability in Strength means that a creature "can't exert force." Why then should being able to exert force have any bearing on accurately touching someone? Why would being strong make a character better at making contact with something than being nimble?

 

[TYPO5478]

Making it a feat to be able to sub DEX for STR with a to-hit is a nod for realism and allows for a swashbuckler build to be succesful.

Requiring a character to have an extraordinary ability to accomplish a task that people in real life could do normally is a nod toward realism? Yeah, right.

How about the other question, though? Can you hold the charge on touch attacks or not? Combat says you can and Magic says you can't. Which way do you interpret it?

 

[werk]

Requiring a character to have an extraordinary ability to accomplish a task that people in real life could do normally is a nod toward realism? Yeah, right.

How about the other question, though? Can you hold the charge on touch attacks or not? Combat says you can and Magic says you can't. Which way do you interpret it?

I think it depends on the duration of the spell. Ghoul touch, for instance, has a duration of 1d6+2 rounds, so you can whiff...I mean, hold the charge, until that time is up or you discharge the spell. Chill touch, on the other hand is instantaneous, so you cannot hold the charge, but you can use the chill touch attack up to one time per level.

(please jump all over that if it's wrong )

 

[JiffyPopTart]

So the reason is not that it actually makes any sense to do it that way, but that it might be overpowered if we don't?

Actually, yes, I think that is the reason its done that way. They give you an out (Weapon Finesse Feat) if you really want to do it, but as the rules are written thats the way it goes. If you really want to dig deep you could cast Spectral Hand and get a +2 to your touch attacks AND do it at range.

I have no idea why you are arguing with ME how stupid you think it is the rule is that way, I have nothing to do with it.

I have never had a problem with it, and I have played two wizards with strengths of 5. It has always been a hassle but as a wizard I never wanted to get close enough to someone to use a touch spell spell anyway. I think ending you turn standing next to a bad guy is asking to have your head chopped off.

DS

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Requiring a character to have an extraordinary ability to accomplish a task that people in real life could do normally is a nod toward realism? Yeah, right.

How about this for realism. Dig up a pouch from the local Goodwill. Go through your list of spell components that you character would have. Fill the bag with all the spell components for all your spells.

Practice doing all of the following in 6 seconds.
1. Keep one hand on your quarterstaff, or dagger, or whatever weapon you carry around.
2. With the other hand dig around in the pack and find the correct component for a spell.
3. Manipulate the component, while at the same time moving your hand around in an arcane way, and while at the same time spouting some gibberish.
4. Try to touch your buddy with your now-filled-with-power spell hand.

DS

 

[Artoomis]

I think it depends on the duration of the spell. Ghoul touch, for instance, has a duration of 1d6+2 rounds, so you can whiff...I mean, hold the charge, until that time is up or you discharge the spell. Chill touch, on the other hand is instantaneous, so you cannot hold the charge, but you can use the chill touch attack up to one time per level.

(please jump all over that if it's wrong )

That is wrong.

"Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later."

As I understand it:

Ghoul touch duration is from the time the creature is touched.

Note that the downside is that if you touch ANYTHING the spell is discharged. Most folks kind of ignore this, though.

Also note that a ranged touch does not work this way, of course.

 

[Artoomis]

...The question here is one of choice: are these two sections contradictory, or are we to assume that only charges of touch spells with a single target can be held? Some other option? If they are condradictory, which is the primary source we should go by?

I'd allow you to hold either one, but for mutiple targets, once you touch one target, all others must also must be touched in that same round unless the spell very specifically states otherwise.