Touch Attacks and DR

[Jhulae]

Yes, it is. Specifically, it's a natural weapon that's dealing the damage.

No it's not. Natural weapons are classified as dealing slashing, piercing, bludgeoning (or any combination of the three) damage.

There is *no* such classification on the Wraith's damage.

So, it's not *specifically listed* as magical. Whatever. It's 'incorporeal undead damage delivered via a touch attack'. There. Happy?

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, it's not *specifically listed* as magical. Whatever. It's 'incorporeal undead damage delivered via a touch attack'. There. Happy?

Okay.

Does Incorporeal Undead damage ignore DR?

If so, why?

Is it energy damage dealt along with an attack, energy drain, poison or diseasesdelivered by inhalation ingestion or contact, a spell, a spell-like ability, or an energy attack?

Natural weapons are classified as dealing slashing, piercing, bludgeoning (or any combination of the three) damage.

So are a rust monster's antennae not natural weapons either? Does that mean that a rust monster's bite is its only natural weapon?

If so, then that bite must be its most effective natural weapon, right?

"A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus."

But the bite uses attack bonus -5... so the bite is not the most effective natural attack. Which means that the antennae are, which means they're its primary natural weapon.

How can they be the primary natural weapon, unless they're a natural weapon, despite not dealing B, S, or P damage?

-Hyp.

 

[Jhulae]

Okay.

Does Incorporeal Undead damage ignore DR?

If so, why?

Is it energy damage dealt along with an attack, energy drain, poison or diseasesdelivered by inhalation ingestion or contact, a spell, a spell-like ability, or an energy attack?

-Hyp.

Yes, it ignores DR, because it's unnamed and seems to be *specifically* what the rule under DR that you've been quoting was meant for.

No matter what type it is, it's not a *weapon*, like a sword or thrown dagger, which was *not* meant to bypass DR without being Lawful, or Adamantine, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No it's not. Natural weapons are classified as slashing, piercing, bludgeoning, or any combination of the three.

There is *no* such classification on the Wraith's weapon.

I beg to differ.

Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.

• Bite: The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.
• Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.
• Gore: The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.
• Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.
• Sting: The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.
• Tentacle: The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

The fact that the wraith's natural weapon doesn't specify what manner of damage it does does not disqualify it from being a natural weapon. It just means that the wraith's natural weapon doesn't specify what manner of damage it does.

I'd imagine that it's piercing, but I could be wrong.

So, how do we know it's a natural weapon?

Base Attack / Grapple: +8/—
...
Full Attack: Incorporeal touch +16 melee (2d6 plus 1d8 Constitution drain)

If it were a manufactured weapon, the dread wraith's full attack line would read +16 / +11. Since it doesn't, the wraith doesn't get iterative attacks based on BAB, which indicates a natural weapon.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, it ignores DR, because it's unnamed and seems to be *specifically* what the rule under DR that you've been quoting was meant for.

So it ignores DR by virtue of being a touch attack, right?

Because of the line 'touch attacks are not negated by DR', the wraith's 1d4 damage is not reduced by DR 5/-?

-Hyp.

 

[Jhulae]

I beg to differ.



The fact that the wraith's natural weapon doesn't specify what manner of damage it does does not disqualify it from being a natural weapon. It just means that the wraith's natural weapon doesn't specify what manner of damage it does.

I'd imagine that it's piercing, but I could be wrong.

So, how do we know it's a natural weapon?



If it were a manufactured weapon, the dread wraith's full attack line would read +16 / +11. Since it doesn't, the wraith doesn't get iterative attacks based on BAB, which indicates a natural weapon.

And, I'm going to partially quote your quote from the SRD.

Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.

The wraith's touch attack doesn't have *any* type. So, it's not a 'natural weapon'. It's an incorporeal touch attack. That's it.

 

[Jhulae]

So it ignores DR by virtue of being a touch attack, right?

Because of the line 'touch attacks are not negated by DR', the wraith's 1d4 damage is not reduced by DR 5/-?

-Hyp.

It ignores DR by being 'incorporeal undead', otherwise unnamed, type damage delivered via a touch attack.

The rule in DR is poorly written. It was not intended, by any stretch of the imagination, to allow weapons not of the proper type to overcome DR via a touch attack.

My ability to express what I mean is nowhere near as good as yours, Hyp (or Scion). But, honestly, I'm done with this now. I know how I rule it, whether its RAW, what RAW intended but explained poorly, or a houserule.

 

[Coredump]

What makes us assume the wraith's touch ignores the DR? It says it ignores armor, even magic armor. It does *not* say it ignores DR.

Now, it says it is a touch attack, *and* says it ignores armor.... surprising that the rules sometimes repeat themselves like that.


I could see a DM deciding that it does bypass DR, assuming it is fueled by negative energy, or somesuch. But if it is a physical attack, I see no reason to assume it ignores DR. (And Hyp, you can't use your quote, since this is supposed to prove that quote...circular definitions don't help.)


OTOH, this is a good example of why the quote in the DR exists.
The wraith passes through the armor, to hit the (armored) werewolf for 3 points of damage. If the quote was *not* included, the werewolf player would say the Con drain didn't work because the damage did not surpass the DR. Since "Hyps quote" is included, it is obvious that the attack is not negated, the damage does not get passed the DR, but the Con drain still goes through.

 

[Khaalis]

Wraith
Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
Attack: Incorporeal touch +5 melee (1d4 plus 1d6 Constitution drain)

-Hyp.

There are 2 ways to look at this. Either:
A) It is a Natural Weapon, in which case case DR applies to the damage caused by the Natural Weapon but not the Constitution Drain.

or
B) It is an incorporeal "energy-oriented" touch attack, in which case it bypasses DR.


I would rule that a Wraith is option B, as Natural Weapons are specifically called out as having a "type" associated to them.

SRD: "Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do.
Bite: The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.
Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.
Gore: The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.
Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.
Sting: The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.
Tentacle: The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

Add to this the description from incorporeal creatures, which states they have a "touch attack" due to the way they function on objects.

SRD - Incorporeal Subtype:
"An incorporeal creature has no physical body."
"An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it."
"In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions."

SRD - Incoporeality Special Ability:
"They cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. However, incorporeal beings have a tangible presence that sometimes seems like a physical attack against a corporeal creature."
"The physical attacks of incorporeal creatures ignore material armor, even magic armor, unless it is made of force (such as mage armor or bracers of armor) or has the ghost touch ability."


Thus a Wraith's attack is a touch attack due to the lack of a physical form. The damage deal is not weapon based, nor does it cause weapon damage. If it did it would be a Slam or Claw attack. The damage caused is an Un-typed "force" effect (thus countered only by other force effects or ghost touch) attack produced by incorporeality.

Thus a Wraith bypasses DR.

However, this also strengthens my point of view on the Thrower. The ability allows them to attack as if making a Ranged Touch Attack, thus ignoring Armor, Shield and Natural Armor bonuses, but it still deals standard Weapon Damage which is still affected by DR.

JMHO. YMMV.

 

[ElectricDragon]

I don't really want to get in this argument, I mean discussion; but aren't touch attacks and incorporeal touch attacks different things? I mean [force] descriptor armors and shields and ghost touch armors and shields still work against incorporeal touch attacks but not touch attacks. Shouldn't they have mentioned incorporeal touch attacks also in the DR description?

Personally, I always ruled that the wraith's damage (in addition to the Con drain) was cold damage because it seemed to fit the creature, but that is a house rule and allows cold resistance to lessen or negate this damage. But this rule also allows it to bypass DR, too. If I recall correctly, wraiths in earlier editions did do cold damage (I may be thinking of another type of undead though; when you get old things sometimes seem to muddle together).

Well, that is what I wanted to input into the conversation. Someone please enlighten me.

Ciao
Dave