Touch attacks and Unarmed strikes

[Artoomis]

1. No.
2. No.
3. No.
Actually, nothing tells you not to add in the +3 enhancement bonus from your buddy's greatsword to your touch attack roll...therefore, you can? Do you see the nonsensical correlation you've created?

Is the enhancement from your buddy's +3 greatsword an ehancement to your unarmed attacks. I don't think so. Let's not be ludicrous here, whall we?

There is no nonsencial correlation.

For goodness sakes, how do you figure out the attack bonus if do not add in all the bonuses you are entitled to for unarmed attacks?

If you want to punch someone or to want to attempt to touch them with a touch attack, the attack roll bonus is the same - only the AC you are trying to hit is different.

I'd be very interested if you could show me how the attack roll is different.

 

[atomn]

Could you use the Psion Uncarnate's Incorporal Touch ability with a psionic power which requires a touch attack? So could a 1st level Psion Uncarnate use Dissolving Touch and Incorporeal Touch to deal 5d6 damage (4d6 from Dissolving Touch and 1d6 from Incorporeal Touch) at the same time?

 

[starwed]

@ I2k: Artoomis isn't making a nonsensical correlation. He's actually presented a rule which backs up his claim that a spellcaster delivering a touch attack is considered to be making an unarmed attack:

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)

I haven't seen anyone actually respond to this argument, which is what he was asking for. Specifically, I can't see anything in the RAW disproving his point 1: That effects which alter unarmed attacks would alter touch spells. Granted, most things specify unarmed strikes, rather than unarmed attacks, and these wouldn't apply. But there are still a handful of things which effect all unarmed attacks.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Is the enhancement from your buddy's +3 greatsword an ehancement to your unarmed attacks. I don't think so. Let's not be ludicrous here, whall we?

That's an appropriate straw man I put up. It illustrates that you are making what I view as a wild claim that has no support and asking me to show why it's NOT true. You are not showing why it's true in the first place.

(insert wild claim here)

Please explain why (wild claim) is not true.

For goodness sakes, how do you figure out the attack bonus if do not add in all the bonuses you are entitled to for unarmed attacks?

Unarmed attacks have NOTHING at all to do with it unless it is specifically an unarmed attack.

A touch attack is either melee or ranged, and you use the normal melee or ranged modifiers.

Nothing else unless they are specifically applied. You apply unarmed attack modifiers to unarmed attacks. You apply natural weapon modifiers to natural weapon attacks. You apply greatsword modifiers to greatsword attacks.

Thus, for example, when the paladin tries to use lay on hands on the vampire he makes a melee touch attack. It is not unarmed and he does not get any unarmed modifiers applied at all.

 

[Artoomis]

Do feats that benefit unarmed strikes or natural weapons also effect touch attacks?

To be more specific, could a Psion Uncarnate using their Incorporal Touch ability use the Psionic Fist feat to increase the touch attack's damage?

Thanks!

The Psion Uncarnate is a special case.

The attack they make is a touch attack for damage.

This does not appear to be an "unarmed strike or attack with a natural weapon" based upon the fact that strength bonuses for damage do not apply.

However, it is somewhat ill-defined, though it is a magical attack (supernatural). I would tend to view it as somewhat akin to using a touch attack to deliver a spell, in which case Psionic Fist would definately not add to it's damage.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I can't see anything in the RAW disproving his point 1: That effects which alter unarmed attacks would alter touch spells.

Before you go further, be sure and understand that this discussion is NOT limited to touch spells.

It's about "touch attacks". This means spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and even extraordinary abilities, at range or melee. Rays, effects, everything.

 

[Artoomis]

...(insert wild claim here)

Please explain why (wild claim) is not true.
...

You have yet to explain away why "touch attaks" are listed under "unarmed attacks." Heck, they are even called "armed" unarmed attacks.

How can you explain that without calling touch attacks a type of unarmed attack?

 

[Artoomis]

Before you go further, be sure and understand that this discussion is NOT limited to touch spells.

It's about "touch attacks". This means spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and even extraordinary abilities, at range or melee. Rays, effects, everything.

Actually, I did stipulate that I was only talking about melee touch attacks used to deliver a spell.

If you talk about touch attacks in general, then it is different. In that case, the touch attack is simply the normal attack roll for that type of attack (with or without a weapon, melee or ranged) but rolled against the touch AC of the target.

For example, when tripping with a tripping weapon, the attack roll is a touch attack roll - so it is the normal weapon attack roll (with all the normal bonuses that apply to that weapon) but against the touch AC of the target.

When used to deliver a range "touch" spell, it is simply an unarmed attack vs. the touch AC of the target.

It's really quite simple, I think.

 

[KarinsDad]

I haven't seen anyone actually respond to this argument, which is what he was asking for. Specifically, I can't see anything in the RAW disproving his point 1: That effects which alter unarmed attacks would alter touch spells. Granted, most things specify unarmed strikes, rather than unarmed attacks, and these wouldn't apply. But there are still a handful of things which effect all unarmed attacks.

Examples?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Actually, I did stipulate that I was only talking about melee touch attacks used to deliver a spell.

No, you didn't. You said "The below rules seem to indicate you could indeed use feats, spells, etc that improve your unarmed attacks to improve your touch attacks chance of success." This was in response to the general question of the OP that does not say touch attack spells.

If you talk about touch attacks in general, then it is different. In that case, the touch attack is simply the normal attack roll for that type of attack (with or without a weapon, melee or ranged) but rolled against the touch AC of the target.

Agreed.

When used to deliver a range "touch" spell, it is simply an unarmed attack vs. the touch AC of the target.

Wait, so a ranged touch spell, such as disintegrate, is an unarmed attack?