touchsight and incorporeal foes?

[krupintupple]

hey all,

the touchsight psionic power indicates that when its active, you can sense all creatures. since the spell seems to work similar to echolocation, would this pass right through something incorporeal, like a shadow, or is it best to leave reality out of the equation and rule that it detects everything?

thanks.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

hey all,

the touchsight psionic power indicates that when its active, you can sense all creatures. since the spell seems to work similar to echolocation, would this pass right through something incorporeal, like a shadow, or is it best to leave reality out of the equation and rule that it detects everything?

thanks.

The power states it uses a "subtle telekinetic field of mental contact," so I'd say you could detect incorporeal creatures because (A) telekinetic effects are usually like force effects in that they affect corporeal and incorporeal targets alike, and (B) it's mental contact--some sort of telepathic/telekinetic mix--rather than pure physical contact or any sort of echolocation.

Bottom line is that it "detects and pinpoints" all creatures within range, and the above is simply flavor text, but I'd say it's perfectly logical to do so.

 

[krupintupple]

OP here.

yeah, i'd have to agree. i mean, i realized that incorporeal foes existed a long time before this power came out, so its not like the designers didn't realize that weird interaction. i think its just safe enough to say it works and call it a day.

thanks for the help!

 

[Herzog]

I disagree.

You ignore invisibility, darkness,and concealment, though you must
have line of effect to a creature or anobject to discern it.

First, it says nothing about ignoring incorporeal.
Second, incorporeal creatures are on another plane. Unless otherwise stated, effects do not automatically cross planar boundaries.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

I disagree.

First, it says nothing about ignoring incorporeal.

The full quote is

You ignore invisibility, darkness, and concealment, though you must have line of effect to a creature or an object to discern it. You do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures; you can detect and pinpoint all creatures within 60 feet.

It doesn't say you only detect invisible creatures, just that you ignore invisibility, darkness, and concealment because it isn't a visual sense. There's no reason to specifically mention incorporeality because it isn't a visual-only thing.

Second, incorporeal creatures are on another plane. Unless otherwise stated, effects do not automatically cross planar boundaries.

Nope. Incorporeal creatures are on the same plane. You're thinking of ghosts, which are on the Ethereal Plane but can choose to manifest and become incorporeal.

 

[Herzog]

You're right, I should check my facts before I post

After checking, I found this in the MM:

Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are
either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal
creatures.

If your statement about not having to include specifics applies, so does this one: Touchsight is a nonvisual sense, and according to the entry is thus either ineffective or only partly effective.

One last thing: Before this discussion i already thought touchsight was crazy overpowered, and this only adds to that conclusion.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

If your statement about not having to include specifics applies, so does this one: Touchsight is a nonvisual sense, and according to the entry is thus either ineffective or only partly effective.

1) Touchsight is a mental effect while the other effects are purely physical; "nonvisual sense" would (at least to me) imply taste, touch (like tremorsense), hearing (like blindsight), or smell (like scent), and "telepathy" isn't among those senses.

2) It never defines "partly effective," so for all we know it's referring to the fact that it's limited to a certain range.

One last thing: Before this discussion i already thought touchsight was crazy overpowered, and this only adds to that conclusion.

So you can detect invisible, hiding, and incorporeal enemies. Woohoo. Why is that all that powerful? See invisibility and glitterdust are a level lower, and circumstances in which you are being attacked by incorporeal creatures within 60 feet but can't see them are exceedingly rare.

 

[frankthedm]

One last thing: Before this discussion i already thought touchsight was crazy overpowered, and this only adds to that conclusion.

Overpowered? Maaaybe, badly named and in the wrong discipline definitely.

[B]Touch[/B]sight
Psychometabolism
Level: Psion/wilder 3
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal; see text
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Power Points: 5

You generate a subtle telekinetic field of mental contact, allowing you to “feel” your surroundings even in total darkness or when your sight would otherwise be obscured by your physical environment. Your touchsight field emanates from you out to 60 feet. You ignore invisibility, darkness, and concealment, though you must have line of effect to a creature or an object to discern it. You do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures; you can detect and pinpoint all creatures within 60 feet. In many circumstances, comparing your regular senses to what you learn with touchsight is enough to tell you the difference between visible, invisible, hiding, and concealed creatures.

Augment
For every 2 additional power points you spend, the radius of your touchsight field increases by 10 feet.

 

[Herzog]

So you can detect invisible, hiding, and incorporeal enemies. Woohoo. Why is that all that powerful? See invisibility and glitterdust are a level lower, and circumstances in which you are being attacked by incorporeal creatures within 60 feet but can't see them are exceedingly rare.

Glitterdust may be a level lower, but only lasts one round per level instead of one minute, has an area spread instead of an emanation (and thus only affects the invisible creatures present in that area at the time of casting) and only affects a 10' radius area instead of a 60' radius area.

See invisibility is limited to actual invisible creatures. It does not reveal creatures who are hiding, concealed or simply difficult to see (like when in total darkness)

Touchsight allows you to see through a (Deeper?) Darkness spell, something no other spell allows you to do (to my knowledge) Depending on the exact reading, it allows you to see through dense undergrowth, allows you to determine if something is an illusion, etc.

Basically, Touchsight allows you to use the (improved) benefits of several spells rolled into one. IMO, that's overpowered.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Glitterdust may be a level lower, but only lasts one round per level instead of one minute, has an area spread instead of an emanation (and thus only affects the invisible creatures present in that area at the time of casting) and only affects a 10' radius area instead of a 60' radius area.

See invisibility is limited to actual invisible creatures. It does not reveal creatures who are hiding, concealed or simply difficult to see (like when in total darkness)

Touchsight allows you to see through a (Deeper?) Darkness spell, something no other spell allows you to do (to my knowledge) Depending on the exact reading, it allows you to see through dense undergrowth, allows you to determine if something is an illusion, etc.

Basically, Touchsight allows you to use the (improved) benefits of several spells rolled into one. IMO, that's overpowered.

A 3rd-level power has the effects of two 2nd-level spells, plus some...yep, I'd say that's how the whole geometric power scale thingy is supposed to work--and if glitterdust doesn't fit your needs, see invisibility is a 2nd-level spell too, with a duration 10 times as long as touchsight. Augment the power to 11 PP (equivalent to a 6th-level power) and you can do some of the same things as true seeing at a shorter range.

Regarding dense undergrowth, keep in mind that the power doesn't let you ignore line of effect--if it's dense enough that you feel a creature shouldn't be able to be detected in it, chances are it's dense enough to block line of effect.