[TOUCHY SUBJECT] Why all the hate for min-maxing?

Umbran said:
In addition, the min-max player generally has to deal more directly with the rules during play to take advantage of his or her chosen specialty.
Right. I forgot that.

There is min-maxing in character creation, but there is also min-maxing during play. Pulling out a pocket calculator and determining the optimal Power Attack after ten minutes of number crunching. That sort of things. It is very annoying for the rest of the group, because for someone who doesn't enjoy min-maxing it is a boring waste of time.
Tuzenbach said:
Untrue. If a gamer spends all of his or her energies in a mix/maxing endeavor, then that IS the "real fun" for them.
No doubt. Otherwise, he wouldn't be doing it. However, the gamer doesn't exist in a void. There are other players, who may enjoy a more RP-oriented game, and/or dislike having to min-max their characters. As I explained in this and my previous post, a min-maxing player can potentially spoil the fun for everyone else (without even realizing it).

As usual, one should play with people that share his gaming style. I think that the "hatred for min-maxing" derives from the fact that the damage a hardcore min-maxer can deal to the mood of a game is truly impressive.
 

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I wonder if min-maxing and specialization are really the same thing. Focusing your abilities to be better than most of your peers seems to meet both definitions. At a certain point, enemies you face will have potent defenses against most things and it just takes a big stick to knock them down... the medium-size stick that generalists get simply won't get the job done.

Min-maxing only is a bad thing (IMO, obviously) when it breaks suspension of disbelief. It's fine if your AC is so high (for example) that the enemies you fight can only roll 19s or 20s to hit you with their best attack. It's not fine when the BBEG can only hit you on a 20. Because in that situation, only bad things will happen:

A. The character is effectively invulnerable in melee.
B. The DM finds some reason that the bad guys will have extra attack bonuses without raising the CR, or will lower the character's AC somehow. This is just an arms race, and everyone who hasn't min-maxed their AC will lose out. Besides that, if every viable enemy has to have a ring a true strike, things definitely start to break suspension.
C. The DM just raises the CR of the encounters. But when specializing, the character probably doesn't function at that higher level in all respects, so it's a formula for TPK.
D. The DM finds some elegant solution to that character's strengths. And that's not fair to the character. What's the point in focusing your character to be better than others if you just sacrifice some abilities for others and get hit with the nerf bat. Never getting to use your cool powers is definitely not fun.

There are other things like that, too. Maybe one character can Fly, or has good DR, or a powerful elemental attack, or regeneration. Some enemies can overcome that, but there will always be some that can't. If you can fly, every encounter with melee-bound enemies is auto-win. If you have DR, every encounter with nickel-and-dimers is auto-win. If you regenerate, every encounter with dumb monsters that don't think of overcoming it is auto-win. If you have some powerful attack, any monster not resistant to is is auto-win. One time I had a character with Spirited Charge that worked when he wasn't mounted (as a special monster ability). His high strength pretty much made sure that every enemy he hit died in one blow, even guys of much higher CR.

Making too many encounters auto-win or auto-lose isn't much fun. I think that's really the danger from too much min-maxing... turning D&D into rock-paper-scissors.
 

It's not so much a problem with min-maxers that I see, as it is the traits commonly associated with them. Simply turning out a powerful character with a number of drawbacks (mins as well as maxes) isn't a bad thing... it's when there's a radical twist of min-maxing player taking extremes that problems show up. As a note, just about any player can do this... roleplayers can attempt to roleplay their way into doing things their stats disallow. Typically though, it's easier on boards to discuss the horrors of a 40 STR Large Tauric Half Dragon Monk Grappler rather than the Dex 12 guy trying to describe how he dodges incoming arrows for a bonus stunt AC point.

Anyhoo, here are a few examples i've seen of extremeee min-maxing!! (and the problems they entail which lead to hate for min-maxing)

1- Best or Bust: A min-maxer takes binary opinions on everything in the game and then tends to extend it into his idea of how dnd campaigns function. The values they place upon everything in the game are "Ideal/Optimal/Best" and below that "Worthless/Not Worth Consideration." With their own characters, they analyze their build and cull the inferior feats, replacing them with superior ones... and the superior ones are always superior and taken, while everything else is ignored. This then shifts over to a matter of "common sense" (who would waste a precious feat on something not perfect?) that extends into how they expect the world to function.

Example, someone who thinks that since a feat is suboptimal for fighters, that it makes sense no fighter would take it... alternatively, that every wizard should be an Archmage after 13 odd levels, or that typically there are few melee builds in the world without Fighter 2 as a minimum. The world then begins to pattern itself around optimal choices, and the expectations of the world drop from fantasy to probability and pure crunch. Numbers pervade the setting, and the players manipulate them (or try to) in Red Magician fashion (see 8 Bit Theater)

2- Limitation due to Optimization: A min-maxer who tends to think in "Best or Bust" lines of thought also tends to get in a bit of a jam when his characters die. Since there are only a few optimal builds per character purpose (like a dual-wielder), if one of his attempts at this path fails, he either has to recreate a nearly identical character or scrap the idea entirely and move onto the next character purpose. If he doesn't take the same ideal feats in the same pattern with the same class progressions (maybe varied her or there) he'll be sub-optimal. Overtime, characters die- and with that the potential for new characters ends, and the only option is to recycle characters (or play sucky ones.. which is not fun).

3- High Maintainance Gaming: Some min-maxers are also really high maintainance for their dms and this gives em (the DMs) a generally negative opinion of them (the min-maxer). This can come forth in any number of issues, be it "negotiations" for what's acceptible or not acceptible, or a constant review process over various feats, skills, and the applications and usages of those feats and skills. A min-maxer who takes his stats to the Nth degree can sometimes turn around and interpret those stats as loosely as he can get away with, getting as much out of it as possible, compromising play in some instances, or at least causing the DM to constantly monitor his gameplay. While it is understandable that a player wants to have what he takes matter, it takes a good deal of manipulation of the term "good sportsmanship" to constantly twist the language of the text or demand as much as possible in every way, shape and form and expect this to be acceptible behavior that a DM should permit (nevermind respect and encourage) on a regular basis.

4- Stepping on Toes: The biggest sin of all to some groups: some min-maxers invariably have this problem where they have to be better than others at the tables... not only in their own functions, but in the functions of others. Wanting a powerful character is fine; wanting an overpowering character can be dubious; and wanting a character more powerful than other players (even to the extend where that one character outdoes the others at their own niche tasks) is where the real issues can be sparked. It's pretty bad when the fighter is worked around to outdamage the rogue on a regular basis, or the cleric can always outshoot the ranger, or the dwarf never gets hurt ever, and he's not even supposed to be the party tank. When one character does the work of two, and the work he's trying to do is all another character has to offer... it can be off-putting.

In the end, it seems the biggest problem is not a min-maxer, but a selfish min-maxer... heck, any selfish player (it's just easier to point out issues with min-maxers without straying too far into the realm of pure opinion.. what with the numbers and all). Any player who expects the rules (and their interpretations) to bend in their favor, at their whim or desire, can be called, with no large stretch of the imagination, a bit of a problem. Any player who cares solely for what is on his sheet, and has no thought for the manner in which his character build can cause potential problems in a campaign, can be seen as a problem. Any player who doesn't give two cents for what's going on unless it involves a save, attack, or check, can be questioned in this regard as having something of a narrow vision when it comes to the expectations of your typical gaming group. When the ultimate concern is "me," then "we" can take issue.
 
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DragonLancer said:
In my mind, min-maxing is akin to cheating. Just play the game, not the rules.

That is a rather limited view to take. I see min/maxing as indicating a personality that has dedicated itself to one or two particular things. Like Inigo Montoya - he does nothing but study sword play for his entire life - dedicates his life, in fact, to it. So in essence, he min/maxed everything relating to sword play. So what? That is his character. It is one of the things that defines him. If you DON'T min/max you can end up with a mush of a party where everyone is just about the same as everyone else and no one stands out in one area or another. Sounds pretty bland to me.

And playing by the rules is never cheating.
 

Altalazar said:
That is a rather limited view to take. I see min/maxing as indicating a personality that has dedicated itself to one or two particular things. Like Inigo Montoya - he does nothing but study sword play for his entire life - dedicates his life, in fact, to it. So in essence, he min/maxed everything relating to sword play. So what? That is his character. It is one of the things that defines him. If you DON'T min/max you can end up with a mush of a party where everyone is just about the same as everyone else and no one stands out in one area or another. Sounds pretty bland to me.

And playing by the rules is never cheating.

I have to disagree.

I have a power-gamer/twink/min-maxer (delete as appropriate) in my gaming group and the other players hate it when he starts min-maxing. In the last campaign the players had some decent characters - A ranger who was one of the best archers, a wizard who was well on his way to being an archmage and a fighter/cleric who was the scourge of anything they fought. But then this paticular player had a fighter/ranger/rogue/dwarven defender who at 8th (with a combination of class abilities, magic items and feats) ended up with an AC of 38-40! Nothing could touch him. He walked into combat like it was air. I didn't feel right throwing tougher and tougher monsters/opponents because thats unfair on the rest of the group who don't min-max.

That character eventually did die in battle, and he replaced him with a cleric who wielded a scythe, and by 15th level walked in and crited pretty much anything on a 15+!

That sort of min-maxing is cheating in my book (and that of the other players) because it detracts from the fun of the game, and is using the rules rather than the spirit of the game.
 
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DragonLancer said:
I have to disagree.

I have a power-gamer/twink/min-maxer (delete as appropriate) in my gaming group and the other players hate it when he starts min-maxing. In the last campaign the players had some decent characters - A ranger who was one of the best archers, a wizard who was well on his way to being an archmage and a fighter/cleric who was the scourge of anything they fought. But then this paticular player had a fighter/ranger/rogue/dwarven defender who at 8th (with a combination of class abilities, magic items and feats) ended up with an AC of 38-40! Nothing could touch him. He walked into combat like it was air. I didn't feel right throwing tougher and tougher monsters/opponents because thats unfair on the rest of the group who don't min-max.

That character eventually did die in battle, and he replaced him with a cleric who wielded a scythe, and by 15th level walked in and crited pretty much anything on a 15+!

That sort of min-maxing is cheating in my book (and that of the other players) because it detracts from the fun of the game, and is using the rules rather than the spirit of the game.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. Cheating, by definition, means breaking the rules. So by definition, if you don't break the rules, you aren't cheating.

Now, that doesn't mean you can't play within the rules in such a way that isn't fun - but that can be said of more than just min/maxing, so perhaps a better term would be to say that some players, by their actions in play, even when they don't cheat, can ruin the fun for everyone. I don't know what a good, single-word description for that would be. Perhaps "spoiler?"

It also sounds like all of your examples are about combat min/maxing, which is a subcategory of min/maxing. For instance, would you consider it "cheating" ("spoiling!") to make a character like I described above that is basically sick at climbing, jumping, and balance, but otherwise lacks really any combat skills beyond the basics for being a theif?
 

Altalazar said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. Cheating, by definition, means breaking the rules. So by definition, if you don't break the rules, you aren't cheating.

Aye, thats cool. Thats why I called it "akin" to cheating.

It also sounds like all of your examples are about combat min/maxing, which is a subcategory of min/maxing. For instance, would you consider it "cheating" ("spoiling!") to make a character like I described above that is basically sick at climbing, jumping, and balance, but otherwise lacks really any combat skills beyond the basics for being a theif?

When it comes down to skills I think its a different kettle of fish. Its combat where the worst min-maxing takes place IMO because despite the "roleplaying" its in combat that the majority of the game ends up.

I don't have a problem with a player making a concept and playing on it (your Inigo example for instance) but when it oversteps the balance thats when it starts to hurt the game. Combats need to be balanced towards the party and a uber-twinked character upsets that.
 

I could be called a mini maxer when compared to the rest of my group when I'm a player, but the rest of my group doesn't focus on optimal characters really at all. I make an effective characters (they aren't the nightmare characters other people post about) to help the group stand up in combat, as there are only three players, and most of the characters are weaker then normal. I don't overpower combats though, and there are many times that I am not the most effective character due to situation. I would be happy to make characters at the same effectiveness as the rest of the group and they are close to that level, but I just optimize a little more then the rest of the group and tend to play roles not utilized in the party so the character then stands out.

What I'm saying is that a little min-maxing is not a bad thing.
 

I'm on the fence when it comes to this issue really. On the one hand, I don't find it fun to min-max all the numbers and sacrifice an interesting character for it. (I've done things like spend limited starting money on a house and wedding ring instead of magic gear, because it's what the character would spend her money on.) On the other hand, though, it's not much fun to be second-best at everything, and I do derive a certain amount of enjoyment out of being useful to the party.

Example: I want my Seer character to be the best in the party at finding stuff out, but if she sucks in combat, so be it - that's not her thing. However, if my combat-focused rogue was outshone in melee by the party wizard, I'd be annoyed...
 

DragonLancer said:
Aye, thats cool. Thats why I called it "akin" to cheating.



When it comes down to skills I think its a different kettle of fish. Its combat where the worst min-maxing takes place IMO because despite the "roleplaying" its in combat that the majority of the game ends up.

I don't have a problem with a player making a concept and playing on it (your Inigo example for instance) but when it oversteps the balance thats when it starts to hurt the game. Combats need to be balanced towards the party and a uber-twinked character upsets that.

Actually, you did just call it "cheating," but why quibble? That is just how you feel about it.

Ok, so I get it - you really only are concerned about combat min/maxing, due to the difficulties you've had with the party being out of whack. Would it have been easier to take if the whole party min/maxed, so they were equally challenged?

I think the best way to avoid worries about combat min/maxing, at least to a great degree, is using a point-buy system for stats. I had problems with my first 3E game due to using dice for stats, and ended up with a barb character who had the equivlant of a 49 point buy from rolls, and a cleric who had the equivlant of a 21 point buy. Needless to say, the barb was so far beyond all the others in combat that either it was too easy for the barb, who cleaned up, or it was too hard for everyone else. Later campaigns, I just did straight point buy and I never had that problem again.
 

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