Tougher Monsters - dealing with SR and Good saves

[tricky_bob]

I'm participating in the Age of Worms campaign and now that the PC's have reached level 10/11, the monsters are obviously getting harder.

Firstly by having SR ~ with forethought and planning you can prepare for this with Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and even Third Eye Penetrate (mic) all of which grant +2 bonuses to overcoming spell resistance.

Secondly by having higher Save bonuses ~ this is where I'm a little stumped. Other than Spell Focus type Feats that only add 1 to your DC's, for only one school, and spending a ton of cash pumping your save DC stat mod, there seems little can be done about Monsters with high save bonuses negating your spells regardless of how well you can overcome their SR. Am I missing something?

For example,
We were attacked by some Bone Devils and Barbed Devils, their saves were f12 r12 w11 and f14 r14 w12 respectively. A Wizard with say, 20 INT has a DC of 20 for a 5th level spell (again assuming you overcome their SR) that gives the monster between 55% to 70% chance of success.
And if you look at the SR situation, if you have no bonuses on your Spell Penetration check, at level 11 you only have a 55% (bone) and 45 % (barbed) chance to cast in the first place.

Now, I'm not complaining here. If this sort of thing is "normal" then this goes a long way towards balancing full casters compared to melee types. But everyone seems to think that full casters get an easy ride but is that really the case?

 

[Mark CMG]

Some guys that are tough to take down because of SR and good saves need to be taken out with brute force (using spells to strengthen your fighters and help defend them) or by getting through the SR with spells for which there are no saves.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Well, there are more then a few options.

First, buff spells are still useful. Just because your magic cannot harm them does not make it unable to help you.

Second, Summoned Monsters are not impeded by SR or saves (at least as long as they are melee oriented).

Finally, there is no Save vs Sword. There are not many monsters that have both great HP and AC as well as good saves and SR. Those that do have both are typically not the monsters you will face very often.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Voadam]

I'm participating in the Age of Worms campaign and now that the PC's have reached level 10/11, the monsters are obviously getting harder.

Firstly by having SR ~ with forethought and planning you can prepare for this with Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and even Third Eye Penetrate (mic) all of which grant +2 bonuses to overcoming spell resistance.

Secondly by having higher Save bonuses ~ this is where I'm a little stumped. Other than Spell Focus type Feats that only add 1 to your DC's, for only one school, and spending a ton of cash pumping your save DC stat mod, there seems little can be done about Monsters with high save bonuses negating your spells regardless of how well you can overcome their SR. Am I missing something?

For example,
We were attacked by some Bone Devils and Barbed Devils, their saves were f12 r12 w11 and f14 r14 w12 respectively. A Wizard with say, 20 INT has a DC of 20 for a 5th level spell (again assuming you overcome their SR) that gives the monster between 55% to 70% chance of success.
And if you look at the SR situation, if you have no bonuses on your Spell Penetration check, at level 11 you only have a 55% (bone) and 45 % (barbed) chance to cast in the first place.

Now, I'm not complaining here. If this sort of thing is "normal" then this goes a long way towards balancing full casters compared to melee types. But everyone seems to think that full casters get an easy ride but is that really the case?

Outsiders get SR, resistances, and good saves. I find buffing more of a generally viable use of spells against them than straight attacks.

When my 15th level solo eldritch knight went after a vrock bard BBEG I lost four zaps in row going after him and had to teleport away before being killed. When I came back with almost all my magic going on buffs and a friendly cleric's align weapon spell on my magic sword it was a tough fight but I got him (partly because he was cocky after our first encounters and did not teleport away when he had the chance).

 

[Voadam]

To add to my experiences, in a group setting, buffing up the pure fighters with haste, etc. helps a lot. So does countering bad guy outsider spells with dispel magic.

 

[Imruphel]

This is one of the things I love about D&D. Dominate monster is a great spell versus, say, giants but against outsiders with good saves it doesn't work so well and other tactics are called for. In other words, you can't play on auto-pilot. I really really like this.

It also ensures that there is always a role for the other PCs even when a wizard is able to prepare high-level spells because sometimes you need the fighter's sword to buy the wizard more time to come up with the right spell to fit the encounter's tactical needs.

 

[tricky_bob]

Thanks for the imput.
My Character is an Archivist but he can Summon Nature's Allies and Buff (Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, Stoneskin) so I'll use those in future.

 

[humble minion]

Probably the most efficient way of doing it is to buff your melee fighters, sure. But there's a few alternatives.

First thing is to always target the weak saves based on the creature type you're dealing with. But you probably already know that, and it doesn't help much against dragons or outsiders, who have three good saves and SR.

Enervation is a nice trick. Sure it allows SR, but if it gets through it reduces all of the targets saves by 1d4 (among other goodies, like attack roll penalties and loss of their highest prepared spell slots) - and multiple castings stack. Touch of Idiocy is another reduces Wis by 1d6 if I remember correctly, which also helps reduce Will saves. Neither of these spells allow saving throws, and both can be metamagicked - enhanced or maximised versions are nice.

Assay Resistance, from the Spell Compendium if I remember right, is an absolute necessity for dealing with monsters with SR.

Strength is a deceptively good ability score to target, and you can do it without allowing your opponent a save most of the time. The Fell Weaken metamagic feat from Libris Mortis can be plunked on top of a magic missile spell, resulting in a spell that never misses and causes 1d4+1 points of damage and 4 points of strength damage to as many targets as you can produce missiles. Then put a Ray of Enfeeblement (preferably enhanced or even quickened) on top of that, and the improved level 2 version of Ray of Enfeeblement from Complete Mage on top of that, and you're starting to look at 20+ points of strength damage (or penalties) within 2 rounds, even on average rolls. If you can drain all your target's strength, he's helpless, and even if you can't, not many critters can take that sort of handicap and still go toe-to-toe with a melee fighter (or be able to escape an Evards Black Tentacles spell, for that matter...)

 

[Victim]

If a monster has good saves, SR, and energy resistances, it's a pretty hard target. Orb of Force can work, but that's only 1 spell. Evocation type energy damage effects suffer because they're affected by all three.

Really, you need to be able to beat SR. Feats like Spell Pen and/or Arcane Mastery help tremendously. After that, you can start nailing the monster even with resistances and high saves. Enervation is a good spell to use on such targets; no save, it penalizes later saves making it a good opening, can weaken spell effects, and debuffs direct attacks. Also, outsider type creatures (the ones with the hardened spell defenses) generally don't have the gobs of HD per CR that giants or undead often have, so you can kill with it. Melee using enemies can also be affected by Ray of Enfeeblement easily - only a RTA and SR - which can cripple their damage output.

Multi-foe spells are another good means of attack since the chance that your turn is wasted is minimized. Slowing or Confusing one foe isn't ideal, but hitting several guys spreads out your downside risk.

Unless you're quite a bit more powerful than the outsider, you'll have to go for weakening them or buffing your allies if you want a good chance of success. Even battlefield control effects tend to fail against the teleport ability most outsiders have.

 

[Erithtotl]

For 10th/11th level wizard there should be no way they are only getting a 20 DC on their 5th level spells. You get all those bonus feats for a reason. He should definitely have done spell focus/imp spell focus in a school. On top of that he should have an item that boosts his INT at least by +4, if not +6, and he should have put all his bonus ability score points into INT. So he should be more like DC 22 or 23 on his focused spells. On his non-focus spells, yes, he's gonna struggle against outsiders. As for spell penetration, not only is there that chain, but there's also a feat in one of the books that allows you to take 10 on caster level checks. Combining the two, you can overcome most monsters SR without rolling.