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Toughness - How many hit points to make it worthwhile?
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Spatzimaus
First Post
And, of course, the version that NWN2 and many of the other d20 systems use is just a simple "+1 HP per HD" boost. So it's +1 HP at first level, scaling up to +20 at 20th.
One option I've seen used is that Toughness adds +1 to your CON modifier, solely for the purpose of determining hit points per level. If you interpret the rules that CON increases (due to raising a stat every fourth level) are retroactive for HP gains, then you can work Toughness into there as well. Makes taking the Feat multiple times have more of an effect.
In essence, it's +1 HP per Hit Die, per instance of Toughness.
In essence, it's +1 HP per Hit Die, per instance of Toughness.
starwed
First Post
As others have pointed out, most such feats are equally useful at all levels.
For example, although your spot check increases as you level up, so does your opponents hide check. If both of you max out the skill, you'll basically have about a 50% chance of suceeding on the check vs. someone of the same level. So an extra +X bonus always gives about the same edge on your opponent; instead of rolling an 11, you now only need to roll an 8.
Obviously this isn't true of skills like tumble or concentration which involve a relatively flat check. Which is why Combat Casting is very similiar to tumble; both are quite good during level 1, but absolutely a waste of a feat by higher levels.
JRR_Talking
First Post
I think 3 is ok
my current Liv Gre character is a human favoured soul. She is designed to be 'unkillable'. She is nearly 4th level. she has toughness twice and improved toughness. at 4th her con will go to 16. she will out hitpoint the partys barbarians then ( i think)
like all feats, it has its uses for the right build. If it was a 'given/ a feat everyone took' it would be unbalanced.
many spells raise AC, but not many raise actual hp, so a feat that does thats should be useful.
id rate it a 'just under average feat'.
John
my current Liv Gre character is a human favoured soul. She is designed to be 'unkillable'. She is nearly 4th level. she has toughness twice and improved toughness. at 4th her con will go to 16. she will out hitpoint the partys barbarians then ( i think)
like all feats, it has its uses for the right build. If it was a 'given/ a feat everyone took' it would be unbalanced.
many spells raise AC, but not many raise actual hp, so a feat that does thats should be useful.
id rate it a 'just under average feat'.
John
Arkhandus
First Post
I voted 6, but only because there was no better, not-too-much-and-not-too-little option.
Personally, if not adding custom feats to the mix (as I do with Improved, Greater, Superior, and Uncanny Toughness) that improve copies of Toughness feats, I'd say the feat needs to scale automatically.
Say it yields 4 or 5 HP when first taken, and says "plus 1 hit point per three hit dice or levels you possess. As your hit dice or levels increase, so do the hit points from this feat."
Maybe instead yield +1 HP/4 HD instead for the scaling, but I still figure 4 HP to be a good number for low-level acquisition. (a human wizard could take two copies and gain +8 HP at 1st-level, for example, but that'd just put him on-par with a 1st-level barbarian of equal Constitution)
If Toughness were only available once, rather than multiple times, then I would probably figure it to be worth 5 or 6 hit points, plus an additional 1 HP per 3, 4, or 5 levels.
In some of my games, I houserule Toughness to grant 4 HP instead of 3, but I also have one or more other feats that require it and improve upon it. It remains some use for the first few levels, but beyond that you'd need to take one or two of the other Toughness feats to make it worthwhile. I use Uncanny Toughness in Rhunaria, and a chain of Improved, Greater, and Superior Toughness in Aurelia. UT requires two copies of Toughness, gives 5 HP, and makes all other Toughness feats yield an extra 2 HP (making them all give 5 HP each, since I don't change Toughness itself in Rhunaria). For Aurelia, Toughness yields 4 HP, Improved T. yields 8 (and requires 2 copies of Toughness) and is only available once, Greater T. provides 3 HP for each feat possessed with "Toughness" in its name (requiring 2 Toughness feats and 1 Imp. T.) and is also available only once, and Superior T. yields 1 HP per hit die or level (retroactively and henceforth) plus 1 HP per previous feat gained with "Toughness" in the name (and requires all four previous T. feats).
Personally, if not adding custom feats to the mix (as I do with Improved, Greater, Superior, and Uncanny Toughness) that improve copies of Toughness feats, I'd say the feat needs to scale automatically.
Say it yields 4 or 5 HP when first taken, and says "plus 1 hit point per three hit dice or levels you possess. As your hit dice or levels increase, so do the hit points from this feat."
Maybe instead yield +1 HP/4 HD instead for the scaling, but I still figure 4 HP to be a good number for low-level acquisition. (a human wizard could take two copies and gain +8 HP at 1st-level, for example, but that'd just put him on-par with a 1st-level barbarian of equal Constitution)
If Toughness were only available once, rather than multiple times, then I would probably figure it to be worth 5 or 6 hit points, plus an additional 1 HP per 3, 4, or 5 levels.
In some of my games, I houserule Toughness to grant 4 HP instead of 3, but I also have one or more other feats that require it and improve upon it. It remains some use for the first few levels, but beyond that you'd need to take one or two of the other Toughness feats to make it worthwhile. I use Uncanny Toughness in Rhunaria, and a chain of Improved, Greater, and Superior Toughness in Aurelia. UT requires two copies of Toughness, gives 5 HP, and makes all other Toughness feats yield an extra 2 HP (making them all give 5 HP each, since I don't change Toughness itself in Rhunaria). For Aurelia, Toughness yields 4 HP, Improved T. yields 8 (and requires 2 copies of Toughness) and is only available once, Greater T. provides 3 HP for each feat possessed with "Toughness" in its name (requiring 2 Toughness feats and 1 Imp. T.) and is also available only once, and Superior T. yields 1 HP per hit die or level (retroactively and henceforth) plus 1 HP per previous feat gained with "Toughness" in the name (and requires all four previous T. feats).
IndyPendant
First Post
I do the +1 hp/level (minimum +3 hp) option. There is no way to find a fixed number of hp that is balanced for all cases. As to scaling hp per level--that is *exactly* what +1 hp/level does!
Consider: +1 hp/level is much more beneficial it total hp gained for the wizard than for the barbarian. On the other hand, if a wizard takes a few hits he's out of the battle--at pretty much every level. So a wizard avoids getting hit *much* more than a barbarian, who basically charges into the middle of melee and *tries* to get hit. Think about your average combat; the wizard's hit points don't flunctuate nearly as often as the barbarian or fighter's does. And it certainly can't flunctuate as extremely, or the wizard would die all the time! So yes, the wizard gains more benefit in the actual increase of his total hit points. But he gains less benefit in how often those extra hit points are actually needed.
+1 hit points per level (minimum +3) is the perfect, properly scaling balance for Toughness. From every angle.
(And note that the Sturdy feat from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved gives 2xCon as bonus hit points. So that a 1st level Fighter with a 16 Con with this feat would gain (10 +3 +6 = ) 19 hit points.)
Consider: +1 hp/level is much more beneficial it total hp gained for the wizard than for the barbarian. On the other hand, if a wizard takes a few hits he's out of the battle--at pretty much every level. So a wizard avoids getting hit *much* more than a barbarian, who basically charges into the middle of melee and *tries* to get hit. Think about your average combat; the wizard's hit points don't flunctuate nearly as often as the barbarian or fighter's does. And it certainly can't flunctuate as extremely, or the wizard would die all the time! So yes, the wizard gains more benefit in the actual increase of his total hit points. But he gains less benefit in how often those extra hit points are actually needed.
+1 hit points per level (minimum +3) is the perfect, properly scaling balance for Toughness. From every angle.
(And note that the Sturdy feat from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved gives 2xCon as bonus hit points. So that a 1st level Fighter with a 16 Con with this feat would gain (10 +3 +6 = ) 19 hit points.)
ValhallaGH
Explorer
I houseruled Toughness to grant Character Level +2 hp (scaling). It cannot be taken more than once.
It's been used, and has been the difference between life and death for heroes and villains alike.
It's been used, and has been the difference between life and death for heroes and villains alike.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Storyteller01 said:
Agreed! Already replaced it in my houserules.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Spatzimaus said:
It's the same thing as Improved Toughness, which coincidentally, does not require Toughness to take. i agree it's a great, balanced, and useful feat. And if you don't like the AE version, it's best to just get rid of imp. toughness and just make that the benefit. But NEVER allow players to take it more than once. Every time you take it, it's effectively upping your hit die to the next highest. That's why I think you should have Sturdy (from AE) and Improved Toughness, for players who want more than one source to boost hp, or who simply want a "right away" benefit, perhaps for low level, short campaigns?
Also,
Spatzimaus said:
Sorry, felt the need to point that out.
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