D&D 5E (2014) Toxicity in the Fandom

[Umbran]

Folks starting a conflict over WotC vs Paizo have perhaps missed some of the points about toxicity.

Maybe... don't do that. Maybe don't tear down something else to make your own favorite look better, you know?

 

[Zardnaar]

Wasn't hard to use WotC IP in Pathfinder nudge nudge wink wink.

How often do you really use gith, yuan Ti, Gith and Lolth anyway.

 

[Hussar]

/edit - sorry, whoops, didn't realize how far back in the conversation I was when I hit reply. My bad.

 

[Hussar]

/edit - dammit! Twice I hadn't caught up on the thread before replying. Hey, let's go for three!

 

[Hussar]

That prompted a whole tirade out of him, which basically boiled down to "You are not REAL FANS then, because real fans buy ANYTHING the company makes in that franchise that has that logo on it." He was astounded when people told him that many G1 fans are not fans of Beast Wars and vice versa, and won't collect those toys. He then threw a hissy fit saying we are unprofessional fans (LOL) and quit.
I remember it to this day, because same as you, I keep seeing this "you must like and buy everything the company makes, or you are not a REAL FAN!" argument even today.

So, he was, to use the phrase - toxic?

((edit to add- YAY! Managed to be in time for this one!))

 

[Micah Sweet]

Wasn't hard to use WotC IP in Pathfinder nudge nudge wink wink.

How often do you really use gith, yuan Ti, Gith and Lolth anyway.

I use mind flyers and beholders all the time.

 

[GreyLord]

Okay, I admit, I skipped a few pages. I've read the last three. I have no idea where we are at in the conversation now or what this thread is even talking about at this point.

So, interjecting a statement which may have no relevance to the ongoing conversation, but I think it may deal something with what is being discussed???

I enjoy PF1e. We put our 5e campaign on a short hiatus currently and have started a PF1e campaign in the interim.

It's pretty easy to interchange D&D 3.5 classes into PF1e if one wants. We aren't doing it this time, but they are far easier to merge than, let's say 5e and 3.X editions.

I enjoy both. I don't think I normally see 5e fans, 3.X fans, and PF1e fans disliking each other. Normally they all seem happy each other exist and let each play what they enjoy and have fun with.

I believe that we are having fun thus far (starting with the Ire of the Storm module/adventure for the group, currently still in town).

Eventually we will move back to 5e. Want to see about maybe spicing it up a little, but that's another topic.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I mean, it is straight up a remake of a different movie, IIRC.

Not an acknowledged remake AFAIK. It's effectively a mash-up of The King of Comedy and Taxi Driver, but it doesn't seem to have anything to add to them beyond a slightly unintentionally funny Batman veneer (which, for my money, turns the whole film into sort of a joke on itself - if that was intentional that'd be great, but interviews show it definitely wasn't).

To some extent a rather lot of pop culture is reworking older works in a way that makes it more engaging with the current watcher. Sometimes people are even aware of it and don't care if its well done, sometimes almost no one notices.

Oh definitely. If you can pull it off in the "almost no-one notices" way, kudos, but here it was the exact opposite. Anyone who'd seen either of those movies would immediately make it as both heavily derivative and lesser. I'm sure there are cases to the contrary, where in fact the material was improved (I can almost think of one, tip of my brain, as it were), just not here.

 

[Hussar]

Not an acknowledged remake AFAIK. It's effectively a mash-up of The King of Comedy and Taxi Driver, but it doesn't seem to have anything to add to them beyond a slightly unintentionally funny Batman veneer (which, for my money, turns the whole film into sort of a joke on itself - if that was intentional that'd be great, but interviews show it definitely wasn't).

Oh definitely. If you can pull it off in the "almost no-one notices" way, kudos, but here it was the exact opposite. Anyone who'd seen either of those movies would immediately make it as both heavily derivative and lesser. I'm sure there are cases to the contrary, where in fact the material was improved (I can almost think of one, tip of my brain, as it were), just not here.

See, now here't the thing.

This is a movie that is well received, got pretty decent reviews and is generally held up as a pretty decent movie. Is it the greatest movie ever made? Probably not but no one, I don't think, is claiming that it is.

But, "I found The Joker to be literally the very most derivative and least original movie I have ever seen in my entire life, including actual parodies of other movies! I did not know that level of "derivative and no new ideas" could even exist. It could have been spewed out of an AI like Dall-E, just by someone referencing Martin Scorsese movies and typing "The Joker set in 1970s New York"."

is perhaps just a tad bit hyperbolic? I mean, just a smidgeon over the top of a reaction? Which is fine. There's nothing wrong with feeling passionate about it. And, kudos for not being insulting or particularly attacking anyone for having a different opinion.

This is passionate without being toxic. Which, frankly, is never really the problem. Where it becomes a problem, and becomes toxic (and no, @Ruin Explorer I am in no way pointing any sort of finger at you in any way, I'm just using you as a springboard for my own point) is when any discussion turns personal. It's no longer enough to say, "I don't like this movie. I think it's unoriginal" but takes that next step of "if you were smart/educated/right thing enough, you would of course agree with me and anyone who doesn't agree with me is obviously too stupid to understand".

(Again, @Ruin Explorer, just to be 100% clear, you DID NOT do that at all.)

So, the point about toxicity being a behavior is well made. And, as a forumite of a long time, I can honestly say that it's often pretty clear when that line gets stepped over. The mods are pretty quick when it becomes PERSONAL. And absolutely rightfully so. If you can make your point without ever becoming personal, things go so much better. But, as soon as you (the royal you, as in the person) step over that line, and now it becomes personal, in both directions, nothing good will come of it.

 

[Hussar]

On a side note, I teach a lot of classes about doing business in cross cultural situations. I teach at a lot of different companies and it's something that comes up in classrooms all the time. The basic, most fundamental rule for dealing with cross cultural conflicts is to always assume that any problem is not because the other person is deliberately attacking you, but, because there is something missing from the equation. There is something that either you or the other guy or most likely both, have missed in the interaction that will clarify exactly why you want to reach over and choke the crap out of that guy on the other side of the desk.

The key is to always, always, try to take two steps back and find that missing piece. Why is that person saying/doing/thinking that? What is the missing element? Find that missing part and generally you can resolve most of the conflicts. It's very rare that that other person is actually trying to piss you off (although that is something that happens). By and large, the conflicts are occurring because both sides are failing to communicate.

It's something you saw in the edition warring stuff all the time. People would say something, it would be taken to mean something else, and then we'd spend the next several pages trying to make it back to where we started. If you're going to weigh in on an issue that you know is going to set people off, take the time to be VERY exact in what you mean. Written words are so easily taken out of context, stripped of meaning, and misunderstood.