Tracking over rock. Is it too easy?

[Scion]

Yeah it is. It's making it impossible for level one characters. What are you, incapable of speaking english?

I am perfectly capable of speaking and understanding english. Just because you have deficiencies in the area does not mean that I do. This game has, and real life, have areas where there are differing levels of expertise. If something is incredibly hard then it is impossible for someone with little skill, but might still be easy for someone with a high amount of skill. Hence what I said before. Easy.

Furthermore, changing it so you need a roll of 15, when you've got a skill of 20 is basically saying "you cannot track at full speed, you cannot track in the dark, or in unusually difficult conditions, or ..."

nope, I have changed nothing. I have a circumstance that has circumstancial modifiers. This is in the rules.

Read the above about fighter vs the various ac's that dont change. Doesnt that seem silly? Now we have a stone floored room. It is always dc 20, no matter what may be in the room, distractions, problems, or anything else that may come up. Doesnt that seem silly too?

You basically remove the worth of the skill, and with little to no good reason beyond "wah wah wah, I hate track".

I dont hate track, I hate the fact that no matter what in the world might be around to modify it you are going to say that it is always the same dc. This is just blatantly wrong whether you look in the real world or in the section about adding modifiers based on circumstances. It is still an incredibly powerful feat, and very useful, but not a 100% chance of success always with no risk. At least not until higher levels.

If they're against a 10th level ranger, I'd expect some serious efforts to hide their trail would be in order, up to and including spells which can totally defeat said tracker (which, IMHO sucks hard).

Make their trail harder? name a way other than spells and the +5 for 'hiding your trail'. Magical effects that do so will always trump, which whether that is balanced or not is for a different thread.

Finally, I would never, ever want my PCs just to run away from a BBEG, and have him, although determined, never ever catch them. What's the point??

What is the point? So now who is useing skills inappropriately? I make sure all of my npc's use skills just the same as pc's, good for the goose good for the gander as it were. If it works one way for the pcs it works the same for the npcs and the other way around. If the pc's get away, find a way to cover their tracks, and use various circumstances in order to make it harder for them to track then it will be represented in the npc having a harder time to find them. No deus ex machina about, 'you may run and have good ideas, but my big bad is cool and can find you no matter what so ;p'

If track is in every way inferior to spells, then why bother with track?

Now this doesnt make any sense, spells are powerful but limited. In duration, range, ability, and knowledge. Sometimes a combination, sometimes only one. They always have some sort of limits though. Track however, as written, is nearly the all powerful end all, be all that it shouldnt be.


In any event, I guess everyone will have their own ideas and ideals. Mine will be that it is possible for things to be harder than the barest minimum dc. It is a baseline and can be modified up or down depending on what is going on. This seems perfectly in line with the rules to me, they just arent stated out as well as they should be.

 

[Scion]

Let's try these on for size: "I do not think that someone with a few ranks in Spot should be able to automatically notice an invisible opponent present." "I do not think that someone with 10 ranks in Tumble and a good Dex should automatically be able to evade the AoOs of orcs." "I do not think that someone with 15 ranks in Diplomacy should automatically be able to make a good impression on an angry mob."

Invisible opponent present? sure, within a few feet, and you dont know exactly where just that they are there. That is a far cry from, '5 minutes ago the npc passed across this flat stone leaving absolutely no tracks and entered that door over there' One is a bit more exact, can you guess which?

A lot of people feel that tumble is too strong and should be based more off of some skill of the opponent, opposed rolls even. Strange concept right?

15 ranks of diplomacy? you are jumping from low levels up to high levels? that same character probably has a good charisma plus some sort of magical item. Plus even then it will still be difficult according to the rules. So where was the problem again?

In the real world, there are people (and creatures using scent) who can track flawlessly under difficult conditions. The only variables in the equation are how much time it takes, and whether the tracker is closing in or the quarry is extending the lead. All that means is the tracker sometimes can Take 10 and sometimes has to Take 20 (although in the particular case of tracking, Take 20 is a virtual impossibility as written).

And these people (those without scent) would be represented by high level characters with lots of inherant skill. So that does nothing for your case.

I think take 20 is iffy but probably allowable, there is no real penalty for failing, so the check would take 20x as long as a normal check. This makes sense in logical fashion because the character is going over everything very carefully. Although the rules on tracking are a bit wonky so it could go either way.


Like I have said repeatidly, it comes down to this:
If there are no modifiers that you can put on just from effects of the terrain in question then it is the same as AC being merely a factor of something simple like the type of material you are wearing and nothing else. Same thing. There is a problem with both scenarios.

 

[Strahd]

No, the rule is not broken. However, your conceptualisation of 10th level characters may be slightly off. Such characters are epic, in the plain-English sense of the term: a 10th level cleric can raise people from the dead, a 10th level wizard can teleport to the other side of the planet, a 10th level fighter can slaughter a battalion of orcs, etc. Following someone down a corridor should be pretty straightforward for someone at that level of competence.

IMO the whole DC system is a bit off kilter. At high levels it becomes much easier for characters to make high checks than for characters of the same level to prevent people from over comeing the DC's. eg: it is fairly easy for a charcter to make his saves against a wizards spells and there is not a heck of a lot a wizard can do about it. The whole DC system in general is a little weak. (the save vs a dopplegangers detect thoughts ability is only 13) So for the most part you can expect a character to make most saves/checks with ease

 

[MerakSpielman]

You could make tracking somebody an opposed track check. I.e., if somebody themselves has ranks in track, it's automatically more difficult to track them. Since they know the tricks of the trade, they can leave false signs or take efforts to minimize the signs they do leave. Make it so this can be done untrained, and all of a sudden putting lots of ranks in wilderness lore/track becomes very useful, even for following relatively low-level opponents.

 

[Strahd]

You could make tracking somebody an opposed track check. I.e., if somebody themselves has ranks in track, it's automatically more difficult to track them. Since they know the tricks of the trade, they can leave false signs or take efforts to minimize the signs they do leave. Make it so this can be done untrained, and all of a sudden putting lots of ranks in wilderness lore/track becomes very useful, even for following relatively low-level opponents.

Very good idea. I will start using it right away. Thank you

 

[Scion]

Sounds like a decent start at making it better

 

[hong]

eg: it is fairly easy for a charcter to make his saves against a wizards spells and there is not a heck of a lot a wizard can do about it.

Are you nuts?

 

[hong]

If there are no modifiers that you can put on just from effects of the terrain in question

Read the tracking DCs again.

 

[Scion]

Every three creatures in the group being tracked –1
Size of creature or creatures being tracked:1
Fine +8
Diminutive +4
Tiny +2
Small +1
Medium +0
Large –1
Huge –2
Gargantuan –4
Colossal –8
Every 24 hours since the trail was made +1
Every hour of rain since the trail was made +1
Fresh snow cover since the trail was made +10
Poor visibility:2
Overcast or moonless night +6
Moonlight +3
Fog or precipitation +3
Tracked party hides trail (and moves at half speed) +5



Read them yourself. How many can a character take advantage of? Effectively one. It doesnt matter what they do for the most part, they can only get that +5, which of course is sizeable. But then for terrain there is a huge difference between a room bare of anything, a room with various pieces of furnature, with other things here and there. There are nearly an unlimited number of different ways and problems, along with the same for bonuses.

Now, take your own advice. I even copied them for you.


Edit: notice that it doesnt matter how skilled or unskilled the person you are tracking is also. Even if they havent the first idea of how to effectively destroy a trail (and some things actually make the trail clearer rather than less noticeable) they still get the same bonus. Master tracker who knows every trick in the book? same +5. See a problem? hmm...

 

[hong]

(snip ramble)

Now, take your own advice. I even copied them for you.

Which part of

Surface................Survival DC
Very soft ground ...5
Soft ground..........10
Firm ground..........15
Hard ground..........20

did you have trouble understanding?