Tracking over rock. Is it too easy?

[Ridley's Cohort]

Of course a level one noob can succeed pretty easily. 3 checks (20 minutes roughly, the first check and then 10 minutes between the next two) and he is up to 75% chance of success almost. First level. What was this heroic or epic stuff? This guy just walked out of training, is practically made of green.

3rd level is so far from epic levels it isnt even funny. These sort of characters have been useing their abilities, but are exceedingly far from their potential.

Some things should be very hard. This is not to say that 'it should always be hard for any character', nor is that what I have said in previous posts.

If the 1st level noob who barely succeeds at not drooling on himself can track just about anyone just about anywhere there is something wrong. If people here cannot see the problem.. well.. I dont know.

A real "noob" would have a skill of +1. He can usually hit that DC 20 within 5 or 6 tries. If 4 ranks makes for a noob in your book, I pity anyone who dares attempt tying his shoes cross class.

Let's look at a few DC 20 accomplishments:
--balance on a <2" beam
--climb an uneven surface with narrow holds
--cast a spell during an earthquake
--craft a superior lock
--make a Hostile person Unfriendly
--escape from Entangle
--jump 20' with a running start
--hear a cat stalking 15' feet away
--make a Great Performance that earns 3d10sp per day
--mount a warhorse as a free action
--get a hunch about a social situation
--pickpocket a small object
--swim in stormy water
--track a single person travelling on hard ground

That list looks reasonable to me. All of them plausible accomplishments that a real newbie will likely fail at over and over again -- although there is a faint hope he could succeed. Is there something special about the last item on the list that makes it deserve special scrutiny?

Same sort of thing as I said earlier. It is the same as the fighter vs an opponent, all opponents AC's are naked:10, leather:15, and metal:20. No other modifiers. This is effectively exactly the same as what is going on here. Now do you see the problem?

You do have the option of obscuring tracks for a +5 DC mod. Intelligent quarry certainly could make creative efforts to confuse the direction of travel and presumably force more skill checks. Those efforts take time and it is really not necessary to create rules for them. There are an enormous number of magical options that can help foil tracking short of making it impossible. For example: Jump to reach the ceiling and double back with Spider Climb. I am sure I could come up with more.

The only reason this is a "problem" is because most villains do not plan for tracking as a tactic. Boo hoo. That is not a sound rationale for rewriting a skill. Maybe the villains in a magic rich world should consider spending 300 gp or 750 gp on a potion?

 

[the Jester]

Now, kids, let's all play nice.

I think the 'surface' rules work pretty well, but circumstance modifiers can always apply. Circumstance modifiers can always apply. To anything. So why not? Use 'em as you need 'em. Sometimes the soft surface is hard to track on, if it's dunes in a sandstorm.

 

[Diirk]

There's nothing wrong with circumstance modifiers, it just seems like the stated case (BBEG runs over a hard floor through a door and the party tries to locate his tracks to see which door he goes through) is a perfect example of the dc 20 described in the tracking feat description. The +15 circumstance modifiers suggested by some people on this thread seem a little ludicrous.

DC 35 to track someone over a stone floor when he's passed mere moments ago, in haste, with presumably no time to even attempt mild methods of covering his tracks?

Remember, DC 40 spot checks can pinpoint the exact location of an invisible creature (assuming they aren't holding still)... a listen check 20 higher than the opponents move silently roll does the same. Hell a hide check 20 higher than your opponents spot check can let you stay hidden while you're attacking them !

By the rules, DC 40 tracking should let you actively track the BBEG in this situation while continuing to move at double your normal movement rate. Thats the disadvantage tracking always has.. unless you make that check by alot, you'll never be able to move as fast as the person running away from you.

 

[Hardhead]

10th level may be high, but far from epic really. In the world of D&D this character is no where near his full potential (ie level 20, I dont go above 20 myself). DC 20 is the base, and then circumstance modifiers are applied. I'd have to say that with the traffic, plus nothing to give any mild hints (like tapestries, passing one while hurrying would make it sway slightly, that sort of thing) and without the ability to make a good guess for a starting point (the baddy got through there far enough ahead of the heros so that they didnt hear another door close) would easily be 30+. It should still be possible, if the tracker is skilled enough, but it is definately something that a 1st level character who barely even knows how to track at all should not be able to do without some incredibly mitigating circumstances.

First, I disagree. 10th level characters are definity epic, by the normal meaning of the word.

Second, tracking over hard stone may be a bit to easy, I agree. First level characters should probably not be able to do it, unless they got really lucky. That said, I probably wouldn't raise the base DC above 25, but I also haven't thought about it that much either.

 

[Scion]

did you have trouble understanding?

Hong, why do you wish to troll so often? Read your own snippet. None of this helps for anything at all posted in this thread. None. At all. None. Scroll back up and read the thread again.. or at least just stop trolling.

 

[Scion]

*list of things that mostly dont matter*

yep, you can do all of those. But you have a very slim chance of success at nearly all of them. Very slim. With tracking the character will always succeed no matter what.

Remember the fighter example? There you are.

 

[Scion]

DC 35 to track someone over a stone floor when he's passed mere moments ago, in haste, with presumably no time to even attempt mild methods of covering his tracks?.

With circumstance modifiers yes.. from circumstances.. 35 was just tossed out as the circumstances were not listed, are you saying it is impossible to get up to 35 with circumstances? Why is that? it is possible to go down to 0, why not possible to go up to 40 even with appropriate things?

Remember, DC 40 spot checks can pinpoint the exact location of an invisible creature (assuming they aren't holding still)... a listen check 20 higher than the opponents move silently roll does the same. Hell a hide check 20 higher than your opponents spot check can let you stay hidden while you're attacking them !

DC 40 base, -1 for every 10 feet away, -5 if distracted. But still, 40 is a very far cry from 20 anyway! 20 anyone can do, 40? not many.

Still the fighter example.

 

[hong]

Hong, why do you wish to troll so often? Read your own snippet. None of this helps for anything at all posted in this thread. None. At all. None. Scroll back up and read the thread again.. or at least just stop trolling.

D00d, it is fairly clear that you have no idea what the base tracking DCs are supposed to represent; you have no idea what order of competence to assign to high-level characters; and you have no idea what the word "trolling" means. That's not a bad batting average, by any stretch of the imagination. Why, even the great, lamented Magus_Jerel might have reason to pause.


Hong "I have not yet begun to troll" Ooi

 

[hong]

yep, you can do all of those. But you have a very slim chance of success at nearly all of them. Very slim. With tracking the character will always succeed no matter what.

Remember the fighter example? There you are.

A fighter is going to have a pretty hard time tracking anyone at DC 11, let alone 20. Are you finished with your web of sophistry yet?

 

[Scion]

Hong "I have not yet begun to troll" Ooi

You, sir, are trolling.

As for the tracking rules, dc 20 is base for stone. Everyone agrees on that. So how exactly would the pc's or npc's be able to take advantage of CHANGING THE GROUNDS TYPE?? That is just inane. There should be any number of different circumstances that can make it easier or harder.

Fighter example again.