[Trailblazer] Turn Undead

[DanFor]

You definitely want to use 1/2 HD in that equation, not HD.

Even so, you're going to end up with a situation where non-intelligent undead are harder to turn than intelligent undead (and that's ok, if that is your specific intent-- I'm just trying to help you avoid unintended consequences).

Non-intelligent undead get about 3 HD per 1 CR; intelligent undead can be as low as 1 HD per 1 CR. In fact, the more the undead feels like a "boss" with all kinds of special abilities (vampire, lich, mummy) the lower its HD:CR ratio will be.

This is why we tied the mechanic to the POOR Fort save for non-intelligent undead (1/3 HD) and the GOOD Will save for intelligent undead (2 + 1/2 HD).

If you're going to go through the trouble of creating a "Turn DC" for every creature (and it's really not that much trouble-- I'm warming to the idea), then I recommend 10+Will save for intelligent undead and 10+Fort save for non-intelligent undead (plus turn resistance if they have it).

And the cleric PC's check should be 1/2 cleric level + CHA.

When I say "should be" 1/2 HD, I mean, "Should be if you want it to work the same way the core mechanic does things, and keep the d20 roll valid."

And you should never undertake any revision of turn undead without keeping the following fact in the back of your mind:

The grey render zombie has 20 HD and is only CR6.

It really helps keeps things in perspective.

This is extremely useful information. Thanks so much!

 

[DanFor]

Plus, players like rolling dice. They're a lot more interested in rolling the dice than in watching me roll dice.

I have found this to be true, as well.

I strive to be the Ultimate Lazy GM. I dig running games, I just don't want to do more work than I have to.

Advancing monsters can be a tedious process at times, but I enjoy throwing curveballs at my players. Sometimes, a ghoul can be more than just a ghoul. It's one of the reasons I dig the 3.5 system so much.

I have more problems coming up with maps and adventures, so I'm lazy in that respect. I tend to purchase modules (usually in pdf form) and then replace or advance some (not all) of the monsters and NPCs to fit my campaign world. Or, sometimes I replace or tweak them just to catch my players off-guard.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I wonder if Turn Undead should be turned into several related powers (this is tangential to Trailblazer, really, and is more me thinking in a house rule mode).

I want Turn Undead to do three things:

1. Hold the undead at bay. On a very limited level, I'd kind of like even non-clerics to be able to do this - think of horror films where a character holds off the vampire with their cross. Concentration +1 round or something like that. Enough time to slam the door shut, or turn and run with a bit of a head start.

2. Force the undead to flee. This could be a two-stage thing; force the undead to stop in its pursuit, and then a second use to drive them away.

3. Destroy the undead utterly.

I don't see a need for all of these to be wrapped up in a single mechanic; I could see the cleric choosing which one to do - and feeling more confident in holding Dracula at bay than in destroying him utterly. I could also see it being broken up by single target/multiple target versions of each for a 6-step power progression. Then of course we get into the flip side of controlling undead....

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

I don't see a need for all of these to be wrapped up in a single mechanic; I could see the cleric choosing which one to do - and feeling more confident in holding Dracula at bay than in destroying him utterly. I could also see it being broken up by single target/multiple target versions of each for a 6-step power progression. Then of course we get into the flip side of controlling undead....

Well Turn Undead already has the ability for Undead to be run off in fear as well as destroyed. If the cleric has twice as many levels as the undead's HD, they're simply destroyed. So all you're really missing is the first bit, that of non-clerics being able to hold off undead.

Off the top of my head I can see doing it one of a couple of ways.

The easiest would be to simply say that any undead that's confronted with a holy icon (symbol or whatever) suffers from the Frightened condition:
Condition Summary :: d20srd.org

If you want to make a distinction in the undead, then have the stupid/Unintelligent ones be Frightened and the smart/Intelligent undead merely be Shaken.

Quick and dirty and I don't think it's too hard to remember. GM has to keep track of the conditions, but if it's something you're interested in doing anyway it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

If undead are smacked by someone using a holy icon, then damage is 1d4 or 1d6+ CHA bonus. I guess if it's some sort of blessed/enchanted item then give it a bonus of +1 or something.

If you wanted to make things more complicated, then you could allow non-clerics to perform a Turning attempt. Of course, since they don't have Cleric/Paladin levels it's going to be tough for 'em. By Trailblazer rules, the Save DC for the Undead would be 10+CHA bonus.

If you're going that route though, I'd personally consider having non-clerics be a binary pass/fail deal, with the actual Divine classes being either a Fear or Shaken thing; that way even if the Divine character fails there's still some benefit to having tried.

This of course pre-supposes that the whole Arcane/Divine thing is important in your game.

I suppose the other thing you could do is add the whole Shaken/Frightened thing from being confronted by a holy icon, but Feat-Tax characters to do it. They've got to take the Strong Faith feat which allows them to make a Turning attempt. In poking around in the Upper_Krust system, I see that "Can be Turned" is listed as a CR adjustment of -1.5. Feats are only worth a 0.2, so you might want have a couple/few feats that scale up, with the conditions being worse each time.

I dunno, that was all stream-of-consciousness.