Training, gaming, and reality

[RangerWickett]

Let's toss balance out of this discussion for the moment. Just from a cultural, world-building standpoint, I want to think of how the ability to learn, create, and perfect magic would influence society. Would people go about it scientifically, philosophically, or just do things that interest them?

Obviously, necessity is the mother of invention, which is why D&D adventurers have so many combat spells, but other people could use magic too. It makes sense not to include them in the core rules, because they're not as fun for adventures, but the world ought to take them into account. The only way I can see that there wouldn't be spells for things like, "Build a house," or "Locate the merchant who'll pay me best for my product" would be if the world follows D&D rules, and only people who go out and fight stuff ever get good enough at magic to create spells that powerful.

Let's just discuss some different worldviews on magic, shall we? Both from the game standpoint, and the interesting imaginative worldbuilding standpoint.

 

[Crothian]

I think magic would be lkooked at how it behaves. For instance if magic actually has set rules and function, there would be a scienctific study of it. But Magic doesn't have to be like that, so it would first depend on how magic works in the world at question.

Even assuming we use magic as shown in the core rules we don't have the right info. Rules for creating new spells and how components actually work are really needed to be defined.

 

[your father is]

Spell Spam

I can't imagine merchants wouldn't have mages beaming annoying ads into your mind, against your will, all the time.

 

[DragonLancer]

I prefer the idea that magic wouldn't be all pervasive like that, since that breaks the sense of disbelief, at least for me.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, I'm trying to think of cultures realistically. If people could just up and learn magic, why wouldn't it be everywhere? Wouldn't people want it?

If only a few folks can learn magic, wouldn't they still spread it everywhere? Wouldn't someone manage to avoid witch hunts long enough to say, "Hey, I can make the town safer, if you hire me as captain of the guard and pay me well"?

True, the world could be set up so there are only a few possible ways magic can be used, and no one can ever come up with new ways. But D&D's not like that. In this sort of setting, what would happen?

 

[Kareyev]

I actually played a diviner who created a "Locate the merchant who'll pay me best for my product" spell. DM wouldn't go for it, but I tried.

I never really thought about it, but 3.x D&D has a built in mechinism to support having a heavy combat focused spell set. The best way to get xp, which is needed to power magic items and cast more powerful spells, is to kill something. The more powerful the something, the more xp you get. Sure there are story awards, role playing awards, and a bunch of house rules to get xp's other ways, but the most emphaised way to get xp in the core rule books is via combat. Therefore most spells will be geared to getting xp (i.e. combat). So you need to kill so you can get more xp, so you can cast more powerful spells, so you can kill more powerful foes, so you can get xp ... (vicious little circle isn't it? )

Of course there are other ways to set magic up. I really liked C.S. Friedman's Coldfire trilogy. I cannot get into the hows and whys without ruining the books, but basically magic (and physics) all work on faith. One person believes the airplane can't fly and it falls out of the air. Say bye-bye to complex technology and hello to powerful folk tales. Of course someone believes "that stick you have is no wand" the power goes away. Better make that magic item very recognizeable!

Then there was Shark's (and others) argument that with the typical D&D setup where a science like magic and generations of beings that have created magic items result in the day to day world filled with magic do-dads. This includes magic refrigerators which were made to feed troops and communication networks. Good old Shark. Were he only here to kick this thread into high gear. Personally I think with the D&D rules this is what would happen.

As Crothian said it would really come down to how new magic is generated. If it is like science (formula based and recreatable) then the result would be similar to science. If it is something else then it comes down to what that something else is.

 

[WayneLigon]

Just from a cultural, world-building standpoint, I want to think of how the ability to learn, create, and perfect magic would influence society. Would people go about it scientifically, philosophically, or just do things that interest them?

Decide two things, first: (1) What is the true source of magic and (2) is it something that can be learned or is it inate?

#1 decides if something can be approached in a scientific manner; if all magic stems from the Well of Chaos, then it's unlikely that it will ever be anything more than a powerful and seldom-understood 'Force'. If all magic comes from study and formulation of ancient runes that created the world, then it's likely that such a study can be made in a logical fashion.

#2 also decides this in a different way. IF anyone can learn to be a wizard (something I'll assume is possible, since the D&D rules seem to support this), then again it's likely that there is some written means of transferring this knowledge. Some might do it in a master-apprentice manner, some might do it in a university setting. If magic can only be done by those with an inate gift, then it's less likely unless that ability is fairly common.

Once those are aside, what is the relative sophistication of the best-learned society? The concept of scientific method is pretty new to us, but then we didn't have a 'force' that could command energies and matter at our beck and call. If such a thing did exist and lent itself to diciplined study, then I think the impetus to develop an understanding of it would be greater since unlike in our world there would be real, tangible understandable benefits to doing so.

Something I would like to see would be a difficulty level to spells, so that you could say that spells of a certain DC might 'not be invented yet'. That was what I really loved about GURP Technomancer: certain things, like 'Cure Disease' were not invented for decades after the discovery of magic, and that's with a fully literate society with hundreds of years of scholarship behind it.

Another reason I love the Malhavok Press stuff; There are spells in there that would logically be invented. If there is a teleport spell, then one of the first things someone else is going to research is 'mess up teleport'. There are several examples of spells like that in the Complete Book of Eldritch Might.

 

[jerichothebard]

Keep in mind the fact that in our, realish-world culture, things like computers and suspension bridges have greatly enriched our ability to do things. Yet only a select few have the knowledge and skill to harness the power that lies within technology and make it dance at their whim.

Anybody can be taught to make a microwave heat up leftover pizza. How many of us could walk into Radio Shack and build one from spare parts?



The people that can are in the process of rewriting the social order to favor them. The technocracy is coming. Just ask Bill Gates.

By extension, this means, IMO, that those capable of utilizing such a powerful, rare force as magic, will be at least as elite as the current-day technocrats.




Now, you may argue that everyone, pretty much, in America, owns and uses a microwave - why not the same with magic?

The key difference, in my mind, between magic and tech is that magic is, by the usual definitions, a personal power - it is channeled, exploited, created, utilized, on a personal level. In other words, it isn't usually possible to mass-produce magical items.


Technological items, on the other hand, are easily replicated and therefore cheap and abundant.

Now, if you decide to break this paradigm of magic being personal, and make it mass-producable, then in effect you have merely created the Industrial Revolution with "magic" instead of "steam".

Basically, it becomes the same as the Flintstones or the Jetsons. Same technology, different package.


Point being, that magic will either remain in the hands of the elite, and they will be far more elite than today's engineers, or you wind up basically recreating society as we know it now.


Knowledge is power. You can wrap it in any trappings you want, but it all boils down to the same thing.

jtb

 

[RangerWickett]

Ah, yes. Good point. A key thing in my mind for the style of fantasy I want is that you can't just make a magic item. You have to find proper powerful components that can lend energy to the item, keep it permanent. With that in place, you can never mass produce magic, because if you get a lot of something that's rare, it's apparent value as something exotic and mystical and magical drops, and it becomes useless for creating new items.

Of course, in a setting that may be thousands of years old, there ought to be tons of magic items lying around that people made over the ages, though they might not have much in common with each other. For this reason, I hereby make a declaration that no magic item in my game will ever again offer a simple statistical bonus of +x to a stat or +y to AC or +z to attack and damage rolls. Everything must have some element of flavor included.

So, I'm happy now. My setting can endure without having to suspend your disbelief that there aren't flying cars all over the place. But what about settings, like core D&D stuff, where such power components aren't necessary? In Forgotten Realms, Red Wizards are churning out magic items for sale, and Eberron has artificers. Shouldn't there be more 'useful' spells and items?

 

[Shallown]

I prefer a world/magic system that only certain people can use magic. I don't worry about characters and whether or not they have that quality. I assume all PC's do if they want to. So I don't restrict them in deciding to explore magic later if they wanted to. Its an area that I don't worry about much I just like it that magic is rare/controlled. It is not so rare that it is surrounded in legend and mysticism but not so common that it lacks superstitions created by the common masses. So you might get see a rural village making signs of protection from the "Evil Eye" when they contact a mage.

As far as common place spells I maintain there are a ton of spells not in the PhB mainly becuase that book is for adventurer's not for college trained or hedge wizards. Most merchant/shop owning mages have a very different spell list. Low level wards to protect houses. Anti fire spells for whne fire breaks out in town. Etc. A lot more permanent low level spells that are useless to the adventuring mage but cool for local wizards.

Later